Another Shooting May Test Florida Law(Jordan, Dunn)

nytimes.com ^ | 28 November, 2012 | LIZETTE ALVAREZ

[marktwain]

MIAMI — In what could become another test of Florida’s broad self-defense law, a software developer charged with killing a Jacksonville teenager said he reached for his gun and fired eight rounds only after he was threatened with a shotgun.

[marktwain]

What is significant about it? Everyone has been reporting the story the same way, as soon as his attorney put out a claim of a shot-gun, everyone reported it, so what is the big deal?

What is significant about it is that the New York Times is publishing it within two days of the event. George Zimmerman's version of events did not get national coverage for weeks, as I recall.

The significance is how the MSM is handling the situation.

[Uncle Chip]

But she said the shooting bore no resemblance to the case of George Zimmerman, accused of second-degree murder in the death of Mr. Martin. “There is no racial motivation here whatsoever,” Ms. Lemonidis said.

Hey Ms Lemonididthis, have you been living in a bubble. There was no racial motivation in the Martin case.

The day may soon come when you will wish the facts bore resemblance to the Martin case.

She's grasping at straws here.

[Uncle Chip]

Somebody points a shot gun at you and it ain’t a threat to kill?

He never said that it was pointed at him.

And he's claiming NOW that he actually heard them say the words that they were going to kill him -- over the loud music of course. As I said his story is evolving --

[HiTech RedNeck]

If they were going to mouth off to the shooter, they were utter imbeciles if they didn’t turn it down, if not off.

[Uncle Chip]

I do not see how you can say his "story is evolving" when this is in the first account that was put out by his attorney.

Do you have a link to that first account. I remember her speaking hypothetically not factually --

[marktwain]

“fled the convenience store in his Volkswagen Jetta after the teenagers left because he was afraid they would return,”

Here is more from his lawyer’s statement, given earlier:

“He was also concerned with leaving the area because he didn’t know if these gang members, what they were, who. He’s in a strange town. He doesn’t know if they’re on their cellphones saying, ‘Hey, come back and get this guy in the Jetta.’ He just wanted to get to a safe place and try and figure out what to do.”

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer-Murder-suspect-saw-shotgun-in-teens-SUV/-/475880/17566116/-/ku79pw/-/index.html

This is very close to the advise that I have taught in my concealed carry course. Do not stay at the scene if you feel you are still in danger. Get to a safe location, then call the police.

There are plenty of neighborhoods where I would “flee the scene” after a shooting so that I would be sure to survive to contact the police.

I know nothing about the neighborhood where the shooting occured, but I think many jurors can relate to the reasonableness of the fear.

[Popman]

I have a hard time believing this story...about the shotgun being pointed out the window...

A car full of teenage wanna be gangsta carrying around a shotgun ?

Considering you can get a handgun dime a dozen in Jacksonville... especially in the hood..

Why would a car full of kids carry around a shotgun?

Me thinks the guy was drunk and did something really stupid and will go to the big house for at manslaughter

[Popman]

When he saw the shotgun and heard the threat, Mr. Dunn reached into his glove compartment, unholstered his Taurus 9-millimeter gun and fired two rounds into the back seat, and then two more. As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

He returned to the hotel, believing no one had been hurt.

He had time to reach into his glove box to get his weapon but not leave?

One has to wonder why he thought firing 8 rounds into a vehicle and no one was hurt ?

He fired 4 more rounds into a vehicle pulling away ?

This is hardly self defense,the way the law is written... more like moronic...

[Uncle Chip]

This is very close to the advise that I have taught in my concealed carry course.

Is this guy one of your students??? If so he may want his money back.

Do not stay at the scene if you feel you are still in danger. Get to a safe location, then call the police.

So a store where they have cameras and security and more police presence than most anywhere is safer than a motel room??? And that motel room wasn't safe enough either as he fled from there to his home in Brevard County -- and never called the police.

Do you also teach your students to fire at fleeing vehicles???

[Dead Corpse]

Shotgun. Cheaper purchase cost, ammo is cheap, shots are untraceable...

Actually, sounds like the perfect Banger weapon.

[ksen]

“His story is evolving”

Why it’s almost as if he’s making it up as he goes along.

[SJSAMPLE]

The 9mm has killed more people than the .45 ever will.

Of course, if you’re willing to participate in a testing protocol ...

[SJSAMPLE]

Nonsense.
It’s within 5% of the .45ACP in “one-shot-stop” statistics, and it’s used effectively far more often than the non-”piddly” cartridges.

[Popman]

...yeah...but holding a shotgun sideways like a gang banger holds his gun is way harder and not nearly as cool...

[marktwain]

He had time to reach into his glove box to get his weapon but not leave?

If he left, he would have been abandoning his girlfriend in the store, to the potential gang when she came out.

From his discription, as in many of these cases that you read about, the threat was escalated over time.

I want everyone to understand that I was not there. I do not think anyone commenting was there.

I am merely explaining obvious possibilities. If Dunn had called the police right away, the presumption of his innocence would be very likely. We will find out more over time.

Here are some obvious questions:

Who were the people in the SUV?

Did any of them have a criminal record?

Who owned the SUV? Did they take Jordan to the Hospital?

How long was it after the shooting that they reported it to police?

As others have noted, it is really too early to know what happened, but we have two very different versions of events.

[Joe Brower]

I do see incidents like this as an inevitable result of the "Two Americas" clashing cultures (to grace America's current evil-worship with the term).

Most of these teens are typical -- all balls and no brains -- I would have likely been loud on a speakers myself if that kind of gear had been around in my day.

But unlike our generation, these self-anointed 'gangstas' have rarely ever had to deal with any part of physical reality that normally results from such behavior in a more natural setting, i.e.: One where you get your ass kicked if you act up.

So once in a while they will run into the cold steel wall of reality, where flesh and bone don't fare well.

[Dead Corpse]

I don’t know about that. The barrel of a shotgun pointed at you is pretty Universal language for “You are about to have a really bad day”.

[Uncle Chip]

If he left, he would have been abandoning his girlfriend in the store, to the potential gang when she came out.

So grab your gun from the glove box and go into the store and protect her there as you call the police. Instead he's going to let her come out of the store into the midst of a gun battle that he starts????

Please ---

[marktwain]

Uncle Chip posted:

“Instead he’s going to let her come out of the store into the midst of a gun battle that he starts????”

marktwain replies:

Your hypothetical does not fit either of the accounts being put forward.

In Dunn’s account, he did not start the gun battle, he responded to a threat.

In the account put forward by unknown associats of Jordan’s, there was no gun battle.

[Uncle Chip]

In Dunn’s account, he did not start the gun battle, he responded to a threat.

And the facts of the threat were???? that's right -- there is no evidence of such.

And I'm sure that the ME is testing the kid's hands for gun residue as well to be sure.

He asked them to turn it down. At first they did, Ms. Lemonidis said. But then they turned the volume back up and began cursing him.

How did he hear that cursing and any threat over that loud music that they just turned back up.

When he saw the shotgun and heard the threat, Mr. Dunn reached into his glove compartment, unholstered his Taurus 9-millimeter gun and fired two rounds into the back seat, and then two more. As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

The only threat here was Dunn and he was a threat to the people in this car and the public safety. He fired first. He was the only one who fired. And he fired last.

It sounds to me that if those in the other car had had a weapon that they would have been justified in shooting him as he was the real threat here -- but they didn't because they either did not have a weapon or showed more restraint than the licensed gunowner here.