Ten Neo-Confederate Myths

March 9, 2013 | vanity

[donmeaker]

Sadly, a bad rap on the southern insurrection is deserved.

[donmeaker]

Oddly, fascism is at its essence “Let us hang together or we shall assuredly hand separately.” which sounds a bit like Ben Franklin to me.

Mussolini used the symbol because it harked back to the Romans. He wanted to ignore the intervening conquest of Italy by Goths, Byzantine Greeks, Crusaders, French, Austro-Hungarians and Arabs (in no particular order).

[donmeaker]

One might want to check the date of birth of Lincoln’s eldest son and compare that to the date of Lincoln’s marriage....

[donmeaker]

As I recollect, Lee maneuvered on Washington DC at Gettysburg and Sharpsburg. First Bull Run Beauregard tried to maneuver on Washington DC, by going around the right of Union forces.

Only because of loyal militia companies, and the disarming of disloyal militia companies was Lincoln ever inaugurated.

So yes, the southern pretended government did attempt to take over Washington, several times.

[Mr. Lucky]

OK. Lincoln was wed on November 4, 1842, and Robert was born on August 1, 1943.

[central_va]

If the Army of Northern Va were to have captured DC, it would have been considered a tactical victory, not a strategic victory. The South wasn’t interested in taking and holding Northern territory. The whole point of secession was the opposite of that. I feel like I am talking to someone with less than a full deck when I post to you. Kind of a creepy feeling I get.

[BroJoeK]

donmeaker in reference to my post #807: "Oddly, fascism is at its essence “Let us hang together or we shall assuredly hand separately.” which sounds a bit like Ben Franklin to me.
"Mussolini used the symbol because it harked back to the Romans..."

Ancient republican Romans used the fasces symbol of strength through numbers.
So did our Founders, for example, note the fasces in this statue of George Washington in New York City:

And here we see the symbol in Congress:

\

These symbols express the original ideals of the American Republic, and have nothing -- zero, zip, nada -- to do with Mussolini's 20th century political fascism, or National Socialism -- a term which better expresses Mussolini's ideals.

So I'll repeat my response to central_va in post #807:

"Calling Lincoln 'fascist' is just as ludicrous as calling, say, George Washington a 'fascist'.
Both loved their country, neither was a 'fascist'."

[BroJoeK]

donmeaker: "One might want to check the date of birth of Lincoln’s eldest son and compare that to the date of Lincoln’s marriage...."

Mr. Lucky: "Lincoln was wed on November 4, 1842, and Robert was born on August 1, 1943."

In post #808 to central_va, Jay Redhawk labeled Lincoln a "bi-polar closet queer".

Your data suggests he was anything but.

[donmeaker]

Exactly right.

The idea of people doing good things together is as old as humanity.

The coopting of good symbols to encourage bad goals is as old as bad goals.

[donmeaker]

Except Lincoln didn’t intend to end slavery in the southern states. He thought it was evil, but beyond his powers, at least until the war started. The president is mostly uninvolved in the admendment process.

War powers of the president are greater.

[donmeaker]

Sorry, southern armies invaded several states and territories. Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, Vermont(!) Pennsylvania, and Maryland.

That indicates that they didn’t want to be let alone. In like manner, their attacks on US forts indicates that they wanted a war. South Carolina, too small to be a country and too large to be an asylum, needed a war to bring in Virginia.

They wanted a war. They got it. They lost it. The problem was the US didn’t hang enough traitors.

[donmeaker]

Of course there is an extra-legal right to revolt, but that is balanced by the duty of the government to put down insurrection.

Which happened.

To successfully exercise the right to revolt you have to win.

Which didn’t happen.

[donmeaker]

There is a standard.

Controversies between states and the federal government are, per article 3 of the Constitution to be submitted for resolution to the Supreme Court.

Which the rebels didn’t do, as they knew they had no case. They didn’t want resolution, they wanted war.

And they got a war. And they lost it.

[donmeaker]

We do know that Washington called on R.E. Lee’s father to put down insurrection.

Too bad R.E. Lee didn’t follow his father’s example. R.E. Lee was just too attached to getting mulatto girls pregnant.

[donmeaker]

I submit that you reveal yourself immune from brain washing with every post.

Gots to have one to be subject to getting it washed.

[Lee'sGhost]

Nonsense. The South did not see the situation as a “controversy” that needed to be resolved by court. They just wanted to exercise their God-given right to self rule. And they only “wanted war” in the context of, if you do allow us our right to self-rule then, bring it on.

It wasn’t that the rebels “knew they had no case”, having a “case” wasn’t and never will be germane to having the freedom to self-rule.

[donmeaker]

Except they didn’t.

Their concept of self rule was to deny self rule to US states which did not permit slavery, to the US government which was a union of the people which preceded the US constitution, and to steal US property and imprison US citizens who did not support slavery.

[Jay Redhawk]

Lincoln was referred to by Carl Sandburg as being a bit “lavender” which in those days was a way of saying “homosexual.” It also seems that Lincoln and Joshua Speed often slept together in what could be described today as a twin bed. While it was not unusual for people of the same sex to share a bed in those days, the beds shared were much larger than a small twin sized bed.

Regardless, Lincoln had a choice to invade the South or not, and he did so starting the war. When the war was over the relationship between the Federal government and the states was forever changed. The original federation was thereby dead, defunct, and forever perverted. What we have had since is a mutated version of what our Founding Fathers created.

[Jay Redhawk]

Without DNA evidence I will continue to assume that someone may have had it “in” for Lincoln. Those dates prove nothing.

[BroJoeK]

Jay Redhawk: "Lincoln was referred to by Carl Sandburg as being a bit 'lavender' which in those days was a way of saying 'homosexual.' "

The poet Sandburg was born 13 years after Lincoln's assasination, and did not know Lincoln.
So his comment may be justly taken as, well, poetic license.

Before marrying Mary Todd, Lincoln fell in love and courted at least two other women: Ann Rutledge and Mary Owen.
Lincoln and Mary Todd had four sons: Robert (1843), Edward (1846), William (1850) and Thomas (1853).

Lincoln is not know to have chased other women after marriage, so he sounds to me like a good family man.

Joshua Speed was Lincoln's best friend, but no evidence of a homosexual relationship has ever been verified.
Speed married Fanny Hemming in February 1842, nine months before Lincoln married Mary Todd.

Of course, modern notions of what it means, exactly, to be "gay" involve "sexual orientation", meaning just about anyone who's ever had a "gay" thought.
More traditional ideas assumed that while many people have such thoughts, just as with heterosexual fantasies, what matters is behavior, not "orientation".

The verified record of Lincoln's behavior includes no evidence of "gay" sexual orientation.

Jay Redhawk: "Regardless, Lincoln had a choice to invade the South or not, and he did so starting the war."

From the beginning, Lincoln was committed to enforcing Federal laws and maintaining possession of Federal properties like Forts Sumter and Pickens.
But, Lincoln made no moves to "invade" the South, or start war, until after the Confederacy had not only started war at Fort Sumter, but formally declared war, on May 6, 1861.

Jay Redhawk: "The original federation was thereby dead, defunct, and forever perverted.
What we have had since is a mutated version of what our Founding Fathers created."

Changed, yes, completed, yes, but "perverted", no -- with slavery Constitutionally abolished, beginning with Lincoln's 13th Ammendment in 1865.

However, nothing you see today in our bloated Federal monstrosity began until the "Progressive Era" 100 years ago, with the 16th and 17th Ammendments, and Federal Reserve.

The only thing Lincoln did was defeat the militarized Slave Power, which started and declared war on the United States, then invaded every Union state and territory they could reach.
In the process, he also abolished slavery.
But the basic US Constitution remained unchanged for another 50 years, at which time the South helped lead the charge towards "Progressivism" -- electing Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt, along with 60+ years of Democrat controlled congresses (1930 to 1994).

"Progressives" are your "mutations" and "perversions", not Lincoln's military victory over the Slave Power.