Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Ahhh...good point.
>> “SHOW me just WHERE, in Scripture, these things you claim, occur.” <<
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Matthew 10, Matthew 15.
They are sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Why do you reject Yeshua’s plain words?
Why do you reject Peter’s description of whom he was writing to?
Why do you reject James description of whom he was writing to?
Why do you reject Paul’s descriptions of whom he was writing to? (The people called by His Name)
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Think of my regret expressed in #868 as a courtesy from a refined person to end a curious but trivial incident rather than an admission of error. (Though I couldn’t resist adding a little subtle sarcasm)
Since you’re not satisfied to just leave it at that but gave me a lengthy reply seemingly for a particular purpose, let us revisit your original post (#852).
Yes, all the questions you raised can be considered challenges (though it was an extraordinarily detailed set of questions when the usual ‘where’s your proof’ would suffice, especially at the beginning), and I did suspect that. But the intention of the post is unmistakable when we reach the last paragraph.
You wrote:
>> “(Please consider as you answer that how you respond may very well serve as a sort of “spiritual map” for those who might be seeking to understand the God you seem to know about. You based all this on the following assumption: “Actually, it really doesn’t matter...” How do you KNOW this? What if you are wrong and, in the end, it does matter? What if, instead, things like this matter: Prov. 14:12? What then?)”
Clearly, not only did you desire to know how and where to get more information about the God I know, you wanted some assurance, if possible, that it was not just another dead end.
If we could not agree on the meaning of simple English, there is really no basis for any meaningful discourse.
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Your original post was a genuine desire to know more about a loving God that clearly manifests in my original post (#848). You were expecting I would put everything out there without your having to tip your hand. But I didn’t do that. Worse, my response scared you when I alluded to things like heresy, relinquishing long-held beliefs, etc. Suddenly you realized you might be at the blink of falling for some false teaching that Christians are so-o-o afraid of. A close call like this is really bad for a Christian’s image with his peers, and could perhaps lead to a little bruising of the ego. All these considerations prompted your initial denial (#868) and later your lengthy attempt (#870) to restore your proper image as a Christian. This explains why #870 is so full of standard Christian jargon, replete with all the empty and hackneyed terms and phrases that Christians seem to love to recite by rote
I’m not trying to put you on the spot. But it is a good illustration of how a typical Christian behaves. It is almost as if they draw a circle around themselves and dare not venture an inch out to see what else is out there.
**
With the above I have presented all the facts and non-facts surrounding this incident. Now you can have the last word, have at it.
>> “What kind of a sign or a wonder ...?”
Just the mundane kind like curing an incurable disease, giving someone a job, finding a missing person, etc, etc. These things will get God a lot of praises.
Why isn’t He doing a lot more of them if He wants our praises and appreciation? (rhetorical)
To a typical Christian:
Truth = whatever the church teaches
Heresy = everything else
You don’t know that?
Re: A jealous God who wants man’s attention and praises and who worries about competition.
It is really another sad example of how religion has cheapened God’s image, reducing Him to no better than or even worse than a human being.
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Let’s look at the issue from other angles.
1. Even for true believers who can see God’s hand everywhere in nature, myself included, God is still a very fuzzy idea. That is, we have no concrete image to associate Him with.
(Incidentally, that is the reason people make idols so they can have something tangible when they pay tribute to their gods.)
We can tell one person from another, and can recognize one individual out of millions. With God, we don’t have that luxury. We cannot even agree on His exact name. All we have is the belief and reverence in our hearts directed at a higher power. It is reasonable to think those exact same sentiments are what people worshipping idols have in their hearts as well. One can therefore argue they are actually worshipping their gods, some forms of higher power, not the physical idols. Bottom line is, we don’t know exactly who God is, how the pipeline (of communication) to a higher power actually works. Given the fact that God is the only higher power, there is a distinct possibility that all the pipelines that ever existed since the dawn of mankind all lead to the one and the same God Almighty.
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2. Suppose there is a child whose mother is away. The child takes her mother’s picture or an object that belongs to her and treats it with all the love she has for her mother: caressing and kissing it as if it was her mother. Do you think the mother would be jealous of the object getting all of the child’s love and attention?
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3. Portraits of Mary, Jesus, figurines and other objects figure prominently in Catholicism. Is that not idol worship in the church itself? (By the way, I have seen pictures supposedly of Jesus with very long hair, even though it was a disgrace for men to have long hair in Jesus’ time, according to the NT).
“Here is what I believe really happened...” [or “What happens when what I believe is wrong?”]
“Clearly, not only did you desire to know how and where to get more information about the God I know”
Uh...no.
“Your original post was a genuine desire to know more about a loving God that clearly manifests in my original post...”
Uh-uh.
“You were expecting I would put everything out there without your having to tip your hand.”
I’m not even sure this is the way you “play the game” (and I didn’t even know we were playing one—next time, tell me, okay. It’s not fair for you to have all the fun!)
“my response scared you when I alluded to things like heresy, relinquishing long-held beliefs, etc.”
Hadn’t really entered my mind.
“Suddenly you realized you might be at the blink of falling for some false teaching that Christians are so-o-o afraid of.”
Can’t say this ran through my mind either (the idea of succumbing to false teaching, that is. Held by Christ; none can pluck me from His hands.)
“A close call like this is really bad for a Christian’s image with his peers, and could perhaps lead to a little bruising of the ego.”
I didn’t perceive any “close call” or any ego-bruising (BTW, Christians are supposed to deny themselves/dismiss things like ego, but I have to admit, ‘denying oneself’ is that most challenging aspect of the Christian walk.)
“your lengthy attempt (#870) to restore your proper image as a Christian.”
Uh...my lengthy post was an attempt to restore Christ’s proper image on the thread. There seems to be a bit of a problem here where many who come to post to a thread about Christ’s deity actually believe He is not (don’t know how they could get that idea when the scriptures “Clearly” show this...but, well...)
“This explains why #870 is so full of standard Christian jargon, replete with all the empty and hackneyed terms and phrases that Christians seem to love to recite by rote.”
If, by this, you mean the scriptures, well...If, by this, you mean my efforts to explicate the scriptures, then you must be like the “noble Bereans” and find out for yourself whether these things be so or not.
“I’m not trying to put you on the spot.”
Whew! For a minute there, I was feeling, well...I was feeling like, “Say, where’s this spot I’m supposed to be on? I need to find it, get on it and stay there until sun7 says I can go.
“...a good illustration of how a typical Christian behaves.”
Here is where I believe you’ve made/make your mistake. Of course, this is to be expected by the Christian. Low estimation of Christ necessarily means low estimation of His followers. It’s perfectly natural.
“It is almost as if they draw a circle around themselves and dare not venture an inch out to see what else is out there.”
Let me fix that for you: “It is almost as if Christ draws a circle around them and they need not venture an inch out to see that nothing else [really] is out there.”
“With the above I have presented all the facts and non-facts surrounding this incident.”
See, this is what I mean. It’s like your theology. Now we all have to do the guessing and try to determine which are the facts and which are the non-facts. BTW, aren’t “non-facts” sometimes called untruths?
You sound like you have a problem with Christians. I must admit, sometimes I do, too. That is, I have a problem with those who go around using the name of Christ to justify their actions, label their practices, put a name on their gatherings. They seek to derive something positive by aligning themselves with Him. I get it. I see those groups, all around me. But, there are those who are genuine followers (F-O-L-L-O-W-E-R-S). They do not seek their own will but HIS. They do not do their own works, but HIS. They do not use their own words, but HIS. They do not profess their own understanding, but HIS truth. They get their marching orders from HIM through HIS word. They gather together in HIS name (and not some earthly one). They have asked themselves, “How will I know Him, when I see/hear Him? How will I recognize Him?” They have gone to the place where they can find out - the scriptures. They do not follow the dictates of man when they do so; they follow the scriptures. These gatherings of His people are out there; you can go and find them.
If you believe I have put MarDav forth here in this or any post I have posted, then, yes, by all means, dismiss me. I am not the one to listen to. If, on the other hand, I have tried to reason with you (and others) using the scriptures, then, you are dismissing the scriptures (about which we read, “are able to make one wise unto salvation.”) What will you do then, having thrown away the road map to God? How will you KNOW Him, Whom to know is life eternal?
That’s all. No harm done here.
These things happen all the time.
Perhaps the media fails to report them.
Sadly; I do.
You are exactly right.
There are very few Berean types these days.
Didn't look very JEWISH; did He!
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all
1 1/3
Some final thoughts.
1. Is the Bible the word of God?
A book that can be and has been altered by man can NEVER be the word of God that man should abide by (cf. The immutable physical laws on Earth); not to mention the fact that it was written in a form suitable only for theologians, not ordinary man.
(If God truly has any written message for man, He probably will have to write it in outer space seen only with a telescope to keep it safe.)
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2. Does the church/bible really provide answers?
Not to the questions that humans have always wanted answers to. Religion can only offer vague, tentative and unsatisfying non-answers.
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3. What is my motive?
A desire for others to know that they can have REAL AND SATISFYING answers to all the bewildering questions that human beings have always had regarding life and death, and why God seems silent and absent, etc.
My posts are actually intended for everyone, especially to let people know that there are good reasons to question the things that the church has taught us. I don’t belong to any religious sect or denomination, and therefore have no need to proselytize and convert anyone.
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4. What is the truth then?
Just some simple knowledge that will change our entire outlook on life and that makes no much sense. As everyone must have guessed, eternal damnation is not part of it.
There is no roadmap required, no complicated ceremony needed (God has no need for our praises or ceremonial rituals), no church dogma involved (God and religion are not the same thing), no incredible things like virgin birth to wrestle with, no public or private renouncement of old beliefs (they will simply be replaced).
And this knowledge is not new and has been readily available for years, so it is not a secret and can be summed up in a short paragraph. But most Christians don’t know about it because they have an irrational fear of false teachings the church has instilled in them. And unfortunately, only people who look can expect to find the truth.
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5. Is Jesus God?
Not only was Jesus a human being, a mortal just like you and me, he did not even die on the cross, but was rescued and died in France in his old age.
For those not in denial, here is a comprehensive and well-researched book to get started. Look for it in the library:
Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, et al.
http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Blood-Grail-Michael-Baigent/dp/0440136482
Must be hard living in your own ‘fog of reason’ which your posts continue to reveal. You set so many perimeters around God, faith and facts that it’s quite easy seeing the road before you to God is going to be very long... short of Him stepping in to change your trajectory.
Am grateful for those who know Him otherwise then that which you’ve portrayed. ...and that His word is not just a piece of literature but exactly as he intends to use it in our life.
You’ve created such a huge gap between yourself and the reality that is God you might want to consider another route than the one your are on.
It’s a narrow way but it’s the only way I hope HE might one day let you find....
#892 is supposed to be my last post, but I forgot the last line, so here it is:
Take it away! Let the attack begin.
(As the first one shows, for those in denial, even their attacks are totally devoid of substance)
He clearly and distinctly says he prays to Jesus and believes in what Jesus proclaimed... very clearly... I listened to this three times and every time he proclaims Jesus as truth.
You are a nutcase.. where are the Viking Kitties when you need them???
Why should it be your last post? Please enlighten me. How did you come about your beliefs? A book?
Post-modernist thought does not enlighten; it merely introduces more darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness. Inside every sinner is darkness and, until Christ, who is our light (indeed the light of the world) comes in, there can be no light.
The unregenerate mind fancies itself to have all understanding. It has the finite understanding of this world only...and this world is passing away...and the lusts thereof.
I agree with you, MarDav.
In fact, the concept that there’s anything new or outside of The Good Book to discover about God boggles my mind. I would like to ask Sun7 if this new and improved enlightenment is of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and if so, from whence came that much knowledge of God? And if the answer be that it came from the OT to begin with and to build upon, then there’s nothing new or enlightening at all.
If He is not God of The Bible, then it’s worship of something else.
From the bio: In 1976, Baigent moved to England, where he met Richard Leigh, the man who was to be his roommate and frequent co-author
Sort of makes a person wonder if sun7 is on the right forum or if the DUmmies might be a better fit.
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