Posted on 02/01/2015 6:06:03 PM PST by SkyPilot
Edited on 02/01/2015 6:12:44 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
(Excerpt) Read more at ft.com ...
While I do not of course adhere to Leftist politics - as does the new Greek Leader, one thing the Germans and the EU leaders are not seeing or sensing is that the everyday common Greek citizen did not directly create this debt - they did not directly contribute to it and had no control over the ones who did. But via the austerity programs used to scrape up funds to repay the bankers bailout - the ordinary Greek citizens are the ones being ask - told - made to pay the debt. The Germans and the EU officials fail to see that to an everyday Greek — austerity via EU commandment to repay the debt is no different that austerity that comes about via the bankruptcy of the Greek Nation...
No Greek alive today will live to see the debt to the EU paid in full.
But conceivably living through the debt and hard times of a nation’s bankruptcy may be more tolerable to current Greeks who could see a light at the end of the bankruptcy scenario.
True of not — it matters little — back millions of Greek citizens into a corner that they cannot get out of - in their lifetime and they will elect a leftist who says to the EU FU - can bankruptcy be any worse to the average Greek citizen ... Personally - I think maybe not.
This is similar to the mortgage bailout after 2008 ... ordinary people didn’t create the system - didn’t create the conditions... but are/were expected to deal with the financial drain of an upside down mortgage with no real ability to sell the home and get out from under the debt... In a time where millions of Americans were going personally bankrupt or on the verge of it ... with their credit ratings going in the toilet ... many said FU and walked on the mortgage ... And GASP - the pundits said - oh my Gosh...they can’t do that — look at what will happen to their credit ratings ... Tens of millions of Americans credit rating went into the tank to the point that credit ratings had little meaning... they even had to be re-calibrated by business - that lower scores were not so bad anymore... The people who walked salvaged what they could and kept what little else they had from going down the upside down mortgage rat hole....
Back people into a corner and watch what they do... Same for the Greeks — they will support walking on the EU Debt — regardless of the consequences — because the consequences are not as bad as a lifetime of austerity paying the EU debt...
FWIW, the UK intends to pay off some of its debt from the South Sea Bubble this year (2015). The debt is from the financial crash that occurred in 1720. Obviously, this crash did not cripple England, but still, the debt is 300 years old. A country like Greece has to make a real decision how they want to handle their current situation. Bankruptcy now will be more appealing than 300 years of hard times. Seems like a no-brainer to me. And Greece will be followed by other countries. People want out.
“And right now the Germans/French (do not forget them) own the Greeks”
Nah. What are they going to do to the Greeks. If the Greeks renounce their debt, the Germans and French and their banks are screwed.
“They did not have to join the EU now did they?”
Austerity was not a condition of joining the EU, was it?
“Right, poor Greeks were forced to borrow 300 billion euro, 100 of which were forgiven.”
Every nation borrows money without intending to every be out of debt - even Germany. Austerity is a different issue, that never works.
But the Socialist Democrats of Europe could never agree to that. They had to have centralized power.
Technically no.
But a government that was operating within its means was.
Greece’s currency was in hyperinflation mode. They had to get that under control before they could be admitted.
They worked out an austerity plan with the EU to get admitted.
“The Greeks fought unbelievably valiantly against the Nazis also.”
Yes, there were two sets of partizans. The Greeks and the Greek commies. The Greek commies committed as many atrocities as the Germans.
I say they were pretty much even. One sect of Lefties fighting anther sect of lefties
In the end, the failures of the EU are systemic, including not assuming the debts of member nations when it took over the money supply.
The price the EU will pay is unfolding rapidly now. Greece is the first time bomb to begin ticking very loudly. Not the last. Capital is already fleeing Europe and moving to dollars and dollar-denominated assets. This will benefit us for a brief time. Then the same underlying sovereign debt issues that plague the EU will also impact us. I expect it to be severe. I have done my best to prepare for depression. May it not come to that.
“Back people into a corner and watch what they do.”
First, let us start with the totally corrupt Greeks - Prior to them joining the E.U. Greece was morally and economical on the take. It required either years to get business licenses or the more usual payoff. Now carry that corruption forward and the result is what we have today
Wrong, the Greeks have been electing socialist governments since the end of WWII. Those governments did exactly as promised and the Greeks kept electing them. Whose fault is it when a democratically elected government does exactly what it says it will do before the election? The Greeks now must pay the piper...
SUCKERS!!!
Let them leave.
My great grandfather got tired of the Franco/Prussian empires and left for here.
I don’t see why we should let another one develop.
“Widespread defaults seem inevitable. The whole system is a house of cards.”
Nope...
“Default” will be avoided.
The French Finance Minister has already said that a 50% bond “haircut” seems “appropriate”.
And the banks get to book a whole new round of fees refinancing what’s left, while the Euro taxpayer gets to pay for it through “QE”.
The fiction MUST be maintained at all costs, doncha know.
U.K. political chatterers often stated their desire to rule over Europe and start a new empire. They were mad that they could not gain more influence over Germany and France. Regardless of the outcome of the Italy-Greece-Spain problem, there won’t be any empire of the kind sought.
I am talking about the ordinary every Greek citizen — shopkeeper, small time farmer, worker ... the majority of Greek citizens. They had little or nothing to do with the events, policies or corruption. The people have elected a socialist who says pretty radical things -— implications of not paying the debt... backing out of the EU... etc.
I am not talking about the people who caused the problems - the Government bureaucrats, the bankers and other of that ilk ...
If the new socialist leader become brash enough to make a break - refuse to pay the debt the ordinary citizens will back him - thus giving a majority. My musings have nothing to do with justifying such actions ... but when a shopkeeper faces a life time of hardship for something he or she as an individual had nothing to do with — they will favor a bolt and run to national bankruptcy ...
I see far too many people on FR cannot separate the talking point politics of the Greek situation from what a mass of ordinary but desperate people will back - for better or worse for right or wrong in the eyes of others.
Watch and see what socialist populism or most any kind of populism can do. They don’t read the book on the rules - they look out for their own small scale interests... which can mean personal economic survival.
The core issues matter little to the common people as to what the rich, the politicians, the government stooges did or didn’t do ... If the radical socialist leader says WALK he will be backed and Greece will walk. In fact the newly elected leader may be pushed to WALK by the common people.
I am talking about the ordinary every Greek citizen — shopkeeper, small time farmer, worker ... the majority of Greek citizens. They had little or nothing to do with the events, policies or corruption. The people have elected a socialist who says pretty radical things -— implications of not paying the debt... backing out of the EU... etc.
I am not talking about the people who caused the problems - the Government bureaucrats, the bankers and other of that ilk ...
If the new socialist leader become brash enough to make a break - refuse to pay the debt the ordinary citizens will back him - thus giving a majority. My musings have nothing to do with justifying such actions ... but when a shopkeeper faces a life time of hardship for something he or she as an individual had nothing to do with — they will favor a bolt and run to national bankruptcy ...
I see far too many people on FR cannot separate the talking point politics of the Greek situation from what a mass of ordinary but desperate people will back - for better or worse for right or wrong in the eyes of others.
Watch and see what socialist populism or most any kind of populism can do. They don’t read the book on the rules - they look out for their own small scale interests... which can mean personal economic survival.
The core issues matter little to the common people as to what the rich, the politicians, the government stooges did or didn’t do ... If the radical socialist leader says WALK he will be backed and Greece will walk. In fact the newly elected leader may be pushed to WALK by the common people.
Golden Dawn, a Greek neo-Nazi party, is the third largest party in Greece. It received 6.3 percent of votes and has 17 seats in parliament. Greece is not the victim in the default process. Bond investors already suffered haircuts, and neighboring nations, losses while giving charity to Greece. There was no real expectation of repayment from those who gave the most. A country must produce truly useful things and cannot maintain a wealthy bureaucracy with tourism and services alone (something to consider about our own country).
They (the govt in power at the time) lied about the amount of debt they had or they may not have been let in to begin with. This started well before the austerity program.
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