Germanwings A320 crash: Plane fell for 18 minutes (not 8)

The Scotsman ^ | March 25, 2015

[kjam22]

The other thing that is interesting.... If I heard the facts correctly..... it descended from 38,000 to 2,000 in 18 minutes. If on a straight line, that’s a nice round number of 2,000 feet per minute.

[Tzfat]

From the pictures I've seen, the large debris field (mostly small pieces extending over several ridges and valleys, some major pieces widely separated in the valleys) would indicate a complete breakup of the aircraft before it hit the ground - but not at high altitude as the wreckage is too concentrated. That is puzzling, but the pictures we have seen may not be of the complete scene. From the available ones, there does not seem to be a definitive point of impact.

I share your perspective. The debris field does not make sense for an impact with the ground. Unless it was vertical. That would seem to indicate an intentional impact, in light of a long descent. Either the pilots were dead or unconscious, or this was intentional.

A low altitude disintegration is the first thing that comes to mind. Bomb, or airframe. Multiple explosions could do it to. One at high altitude, another altimeter triggered device lower.

[onedoug]

Those backups look analogue to me. Am I wrong?

[Tzfat]

That altimeter is an old version standby altimeter. It is not the primary altimeter. Most carriers have replaced the round standby instruments with a single digital one that uses a separate power source, takes less room, and is easier to maintain.

[McGruff]

Ready for this?

Did Germanwings plane’s windscreen CRACK? Pilots of flight 4U 9525 may have been incapacitated after oxygen level plunged

Reports on professional pilot forum suggest black box voice recorder reveals ‘structural failure’ caused disaster

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3010610/French-alps-crash-French-alps-Germanwings-plane-crash-Lufthansa-GWI9525-4U9525-Airbus-A320-Barcelonnette-Alpes-Hautes-Digne-Les-Bains.html

[zipper]

Make that “most don’t”. They can get it if they want to. I did.

Good for you. And anyone that flies with you! But you went out of your way, most don't have a appreciation for how important it is.

[Tzfat]

Reports on professional pilot forum suggest black box voice recorder reveals ‘structural failure’ caused disaster

It would make some sense. For that scenario, it would need to be sufficient to kill and/or incapacitate both pilots AND the automation.

Otherwise, it just keeps flying until it runs out of fuel, the A320 will not descend without a pilot telling it to.

[Boundless]

re: I’m sure the flight data recorder will clear most of this mystery up.

Don’t hold your breath. News reports say the CVR memory is “unreadable” and the FDR memory card is missing (with an implication of dislodged in crash, not removed before flight).

[zipper]

First, many civilian pilots have had altitude chamber training.

An ambiguous claim, a safe statement by its ambiguity. 'Many' civilian pilots are prior military pilots, and all of them have had it, and have it around every 3 years during their military flying careers.

Most professional pilots are acutely aware of the effects of hypoxia, because it is constantly trained in initial and recurrent training for every aircraft and crew position change.

If that were true there would be no need for altitude chamber training, "mostly".

You're beginning to sound like a WH spokesperson, airline pilot version!

[JLAGRAYFOX]

Those numbers of the passengers on-board were posted in media, the first day of the crash incident. Actually, the entire information of the whole incident has been sloppy and misleading from day one!!! I guess the “Obama” cover up has begun!

With supposed, “Black Box” read out problems, we probably will never know what really happened to this aircraft. Seems to be, the new mantra for just about every deadly aircraft incident!!! Hide the truth from Joe & Jane public across the world, and...screw the families, friends and loved ones of the tragic & innocent victims that were killed in the crash!!! SAD!!!

[Kenny Bunk]

Doug baby, just because it's got a dial, doesn't mean it's an "analog" instrument like Lucky used on the flight to gay Paris.

The input can be strictly digital. The read-out, needle and dial, rather than a screen read-out. Think auto tachometer. The needle and dial you read in a modern car is driven off a sensor, not a spinning cable.

[Tzfat]

No major airline in the US does altitude chamber training. Why? It can't be the money. They literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to train an single airline pilot.

So, according to you, they must simply be idiots, not at all interested in safety.

For the record, human factors training, procedural training, and annual aviation physiology training get the highest priority at every major US airline. But what do they know?

[zipper]

All crew hypoxia accidents result in fuel starvation. This aircraft would have flown to the North Sea before crashing.

Not if the autopilot disconnected due to a mechanical failure.

[zipper]

Straw man! Shame!

“Priority” being a key word. Also economics, and government mandates! Are you so naïve?

[Tzfat]

Yup. Naive. 30 year airline captain. Naive. Clueless.

[Tzfat]

Please cite that occurrence in the past.

[motor_racer]

From the pictures I've seen, the large debris field (mostly small pieces extending over several ridges and valleys, some major pieces widely separated in the valleys) would indicate a complete breakup of the aircraft before it hit the ground

Can't agree with this. I"m an engineer experienced with race car crashes at very high speed. We design them to lose parts so they will slow more quickly. An aircraft that broke up mid-air would consist of a number of fairly large pieces plus some small ones. All the pieces would have severely increased aero drag, and individually much lower energy, than the whole plane together. That would increase the likelihood of fairly large pieces remaining, as they would lose a lot of speed before impact.

A land speed record car crashing at 450+ mph turns into shreds. If you can make the car come apart, you can give the driver an opportunity to survive in a hardened cockpit cell. Of course, the initial deceleration will probably kill him.

[zipper]

Contradictory statement: it is his opinion. He is not an engineer. He is an average airline pilot that did what any airline pilot could do if it happened at the same place at the same time. Like I said, I know Sully. He is a fine pilot, in other words, he is like most everyone else I fly with - but knowing how to fly does not make your opinion of the engineering of an aircraft any more valid than another pilot's. But, if the ability to land an Airbus in the Hudson makes for credentials, you really need to ask FO Skiles what he thinks of Sully's opinions.

I don't think you get it. Sully thought "out of the box", and saved over a hundred people's lives because of it. I'd wager that 90 plus percent of pilots would not have survived the scenario he faced that fateful day, and that makes him more than an "average airline pilot". And what of the universal praise he received from everyone on the inside and outside of the industry, praise not usually heaped on "average airline pilots"!

Regarding his Airbus criticism, it's all the more believable because he knows the A320 well. He's given this issue a lot of thought. He doesn't have to be "an engineer" -- they are notorious for failing to account for human factors -- like putting a stick in an airliner, that barely moves, moves independently of the other stick, and potentially keeps your inputs hidden from the other pilot!

[zipper]

Are you saying the crew can't be incapacitated at the same time a mechanical malfunction or other incident causes the autopilot to disconnect?

Are you saying a particular scenario can't happen because we have never known it to happen before? If so, do you work for the FAA? Because that would explain your reasoning!

[onedoug]

From Wikipedia's "Glass Cockpit":

Due to the possibility of a blackout, glass cockpit aircraft also have backup analogue displays for key flight instruments such as the airspeed indicator and altimeter.