Posted on 08/30/2015 8:35:59 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
However, men DO have the right, and can be expected to, treat women who dress like sluts like sluts. There is no reason to expect men to be able to differentiate between a woman who is dressing like a slut because she IS one and one who is dressing that way because she's stupid, naive, or fashion-illiterate.
Note that nowhere do I legitimize or endorse the rape of such women. I simply state that the reaction of men toward them is predictable and perfectly justifiable.
dress like a slut, be treated like a slut...men are not mind readers that under those scanty clothes is a sweet little gal that isn’t really looking for some action....Females now a days are really stupid....gals my age knew how to act and dress. Rape was not in the news every day.....I remember when I was about 10 the word rape was on the front page of the paper...I asked my mother what that meant...Half dressed women are used to sell products on tv and everyone wonders what happened to this country. Add the 60’s and freaky feminazi and there is much of the problem..
And now look at today’s “Role Model” for young women, Smiley Virus.
A lot of people were fooled by Obama or had high hopes that he would be a unifier. Donald Trump had high hopes in him but then saw quickly what he’s about.
People that had hope in Obama, I will give them a pass the first time. The second time, no sympathy for them.
But she said: “If I'm walking around in my underwear and I'm drunk? Who else's fault can it be? – Er, the guy who attacks you? *
“Oh, come on! That's just silly.
“If I'm walking around and I'm very modestly dressed and I'm keeping to myself and someone attacks me, then I'd say that's his fault.
“But if I'm being very lairy and putting it about and being provocative, then you are enticing someone who's already unhinged — don't do that.”
She added: “You know, if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him. If you're wearing something that says 'Come and ---- me', you'd better be good on your feet… I don't think I'm saying anything controversial am I?"
She went on to argue that many women who describe themselves as feminists were anything but in practice.
I disagree to some extent with the premise * that if a man commits forcible rape, he is not at all at fault if the woman was dressed in a certain way and was drunk (and I don’t think that was exactly what she was saying), but other than that she is basically correct.
In another part of the interview she said when talking about her own sexual assault;
“Technically speaking, however you want to look at it, this was all my doing and I take full responsibility.”
'You can't f*** about with people, especially people who wear "I Heart Rape" and "On Your Knees" badges... those motorcycle gangs, that's what they do.
I think what she was saying, if not a bit crudely, is that a woman who dresses very provocatively and acts slutty (or being very “lairy” - Brit slang - 1. exhibitionistic; flashy. 2. vulgar.), advertises herself as being someone who “puts out” and diminishes her judgment and capability to defend herself with drugs and or alcohol, and puts herself in dangerous situations and around men who she doesn’t know or who have a reputation for being bad dudes, then she bears some responsibility for what happens to her. That doesn’t excuse the men’s actions but like she said; “don't do that”. And that’s good advice. Don’t put yourself in a position where a sexual assault is likely to happen.
I remember a few years ago some woman cried assault when she (supposedly) went up to Kobe Bryant’s hotel room. Alone. Maybe he assaulted her, maybe he didn’t. She still did something really really really wrong.
I was thinking of that too and other instances where young women do other similarly stupid things.
True story. Back when I was a senior in HS in early 1979 when I had just turned 18 a week earlier, my best friends Judy and Cindy and I got tickets to see Styx at the Baltimore Civic Center. This was at the band’s height of popularity – The Grand Illusion tour.
I liked the band and liked their music (although I was more into Led Zepplin, Fleetwood Mac, Boston and the Eagles and other bands at the time) I was excited to go to the concert, my very first rock concert, although I wasn’t feeling so good about not telling my parents I was going to a rock concert (something my dad probably would have been OK with after some cajoling, but not so much my mom), telling them instead I was just going to a sleepover at Cindy’s, which I was, but not telling them about the concert which was a lie of omission. Judy’s older sister was driving us to the concert and picking us up afterward so at least we wouldn’t be taking an MTA bus across the city, at night and returning by bus very late at night so I felt pretty safe on that account.
But my friend Cindy, who was younger than Judy and me by a year and a half – only 16 years old, was “in love” with the band’s guitarist Tommy Shaw. “In love” as in having a huge crush on but mistaking this for real love as only a naïve and rather immature teenage girl can. FWIW, none of us drank nor did any of us do drugs of any kind, nor did any of us even had boyfriends at the time – virgins we still were – and we were kind of the nerdy kids in some respects, straight A honor students. But Cindy was, how shall I say, not only very pretty but very shapely and “well endowed” and looked a lot older than 16 and she didn’t appreciate or notice how not only boys our own age but how much older men looked at her, even as she didn’t dress provocatively, she didn’t have to for men to find her attractive. I was also back then and I looked way older and more mature than someone just having turned 18 and not even had her first kiss yet.
Heck I looked very mature for my age even at 14 – 15 years old and I wasn’t allowed to dress in provocative clothing - my mother had strict rules about skirt and dress and shorts length and no halter tops or low cleavage or tight jeans, or bare shoulders, etc. I even wore minimal make up and perhaps that in some ways, inadvertently, that made me look even older or more mature than I really was. I remember being at a cook out at my older brother’s house and one of his friends, a guy in his late 20’s, after talking with him for a while on general subjects – movies, music, TV shows and politics, him asking me out for a date. My brother overheard him and immediately came over and said, “Do you know this is my sister and that she is only 14 years old?” Poor guy. If there was a big rock in the yard, it wouldn’t have been low enough for him to crawl under. He apologized to me, to my brother and quickly left. He really thought I was in my early 20’s.
Anyway, Cindy got the idea that it would be great to go to the Civic Center early that afternoon before the show and bring Tommy Shaw a bouquet of roses. Judy and I thought this was a stupid idea and tried to talk her out of it, pointing out that she’d never get in and that it was a waste of time and money and he could probably care less. But she insisted and said she’d go whether Judy or I came with her or not. Being a bit of a “mother hen” and not wanting her to go alone, I went with her, mostly to keep her out of trouble.
We took a bus downtown and showed up to the Civic Center at around Noon. Of course the main entrance was locked so we walked around the building until we found an open side door and walked in, soon finding ourselves in the stage area where the roadies were setting up the stage and doing sound checks – which I thought was cool to watch.
But we were soon noticed by the roadies and subjected to whistles and cat calls and some suggestive “suggestions” on how we could “help” them…. Soon a security guard came up to us and asked what we were doing here. Cindy showed him the flowers and said she was bringing them to Tommy Shaw and much to my surprise, instead of throwing us out as I expected him to do, he told us to follow him and we followed him down a long hallway and he opened a door and let us into the band’s dressing room and then left.
The band was not there but their guitars and costumes some personal items were. There was also a table with various snacks and many, many bottles of various booze and wine. And a small glass mirrored tray with nothing on it – I can’t image what that might have been for / s
We walked around and looked at the costumes and the guitars and I must admit, it was kind of cool to see, but then I told Cindy, “OK. Put the flowers on the table with the note (“Have a Great Show Tommy – “Heart” - Cindy (I’m sitting in the 5th row)”) and let’s get out of here. But Cindy thought we should stay, perhaps even hide in one of the closets until they got there and come out and “surprise them”.
I must have been a bit wiser than my tender years and even as I was inexperience in such matters, I put my foot down and said, “NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!” I then told her – paraphrasing from memory - that we were teenage girls in the dressing room of rock stars. From what I remember, I told her, “If they come in, what do you think they will think we are? Fans? No. Groupies. Why do you think that security guard brought us here? Because he thought we are fans and nice girls? Do you know what a groupie is and what groupies are expected to do with rock stars? Do you think Tommy Shaw will thank you for the flowers and just want to talk to you in depth about his music? Do you think he will ask you out on a date? That he will fall in love with you? No. That’s not what is likely to happen. Something very bad could happen, something we would regret, or maybe not, but I will not take that chance and will not let that happen to you or me. So we have to go NOW!” And we did. She was upset with me a first but came to agree that it would have been a very bad idea to stay in the dressing room. But we did go to the concert later that night and enjoyed the show – it was a great concert.
ETA - I’m not suggesting that Tommy Shaw or any other members of the band Styx would have plied us with alcohol and or drugs and or would have raped or sexually assaulted us, but I still didn’t think then, as I do now, that it was not a good idea for two pert and pretty teenagers, one who had a crush on one band member, to be all alone in the dressing room of rock stars – all alone with much older and worldly men who probably were used to groupies throwing themselves at them and offering them all sorts of sexual favors- that nothing good would likely come of it. And FWIW, even if the band showed up and threw us out, that would have also broken Cindy’s heart.
She makes some valid points.
I don't know if "expect it" is exactly right.
But there's no doubt that, under the circumstances expressed, such women are indifferent to the possibility.
“There’s a fundamental distinct, in my mind, between actions that are unwise and actions that are criminal.
Getting drunk and dressing provocatively may be unwise, but it is not criminal....”
I agree. Lots of young women behave inappropriately with their immodest clothes. They are attracting the type of men who may be inclined to assault them
On the other hand - just because a woman is stupid is not a license to rape her.
You've reinforced that reading in your response here. You write that men have a right to expect women to act according to the way you choose to categorize them, and thus when women fail, men are "perfectly justifi[ed]" in treating women who look or act like what you call sluts -- how, exactly? Again in this context, what can you mean if not that whatever men do to such a woman, it can't be rape? I don't see any reasonable reading of your comment in this context that doesn't suggest that non-consensual sexual contact is okay when the woman is dressed like a slut, and that's precisely what makes your argument fail. My point, which you conveniently ignored, is that you don't have any more right to force a woman you regard as a slut into a sexual encounter than a woman you regard as a lady. Only rape apologists insist men have a right to commit crimes against women as long as they're sluts, not nice women. The law doesn't define rape as a sexual assault against a woman the rapist, if he were being honest, would admit wasn't really a slut, but whom he attacked anyway. Rape is a sexual assault, and the rapist doesn't get to excuse himself by attacking the character of his victim.
I agree.
“Treating her as a slut” is nowhere — at least in MY lexicon — defined as “justifying rape.”. On at least two separate occasions, I have stated that in the most definitive terms. Yet you persist in taking offense at the words you yourself put in my mouth.
I suggest you continue this argument with yourself, since my input seems to be extraneous anyway.
Even a slut can say no.
She’s right. It’s like parking a car on the street and then complaining when it gets stolen. Or like carrying a brief case that isn’t handcuffed to your wrist. Or like allowing your wife to go to the store without a male present. How can you reasonably expect people to resist temptations like that?
Yes, everyone knows it's "treating her like a slut".
Thank you
"WE ARE NOT GROUPIES!"
I agree. If that’s how she chooses to reference her own rape then that’s her right. Only she knows how she feels about her experience. I’m uneasy with her extrapolating it to other people though.
I think she may actually be trying to take control of the situation by focusing on what she as the victim could have done to prevent the crime from occurring in the first place. If she was equating the two actions in all cases to justify rape that is clearly deranged and illogical.
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