Posted on 10/03/2015 1:28:14 PM PDT by Kaslin
DegenerateLamp believes that anyone can tear up the Constitution at any time and for any reason and no one is allowed to object - even passively.
Curious notion, ain’t it?
The Declaration of Independence includes the phrase:
“Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes....”
Yet they argue they must throw prudence aside to waste a generation of the male youth for the light and transient cause of maintain a supply of inhumane force labor and forced poverty for non-slaves.
Good God, is this still going on?
So were all the Southern leaders who you revere.
We took the last one to ~1000 posts ;’)
Slackers!
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,”
The Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, and Constitution combined to provide us with the means “to alter or to abolish it” by a variety of peaceful means at public meetings, voter ballot boxes, and more consistent with a Republican form of government. The secessionist states became destructive of those means in an effort to deprive the citizens of the United States their just rights to alter and abolish the state governments who were destructive of these ends.
The voters of the Southern states voted. They decided they wanted to invoke the right to independence, just as did the 13 colonies when they signed the Declaration of Independence.
No one else has veto power over their right to leave. It is an inherent right and in accordance with the "laws of nature, and of Nature's God..."
Yahhhh..Your mother wears combat boots!
“The voters of the Southern states voted.”
No, that is a false statement. Only a few states allowed the voters to vote on the measure, and Unionists were for the most part denied the right to vote in many of those referendums. Most of the States did not allow a popular vote and mostly barred Unionists from serving as delegates and/or intimidated them into changing their vote to favor secession or face dire and/or lethal consequences to themselves and their families for failing to do so. So, the answer is no, the vote for secession did not represent the votes of the voters, only part of the voters.
“They decided they wanted to invoke the right to independence, just as did the 13 colonies when they signed the Declaration of Independence.”
No, that is a lie and a fraud. The electoral processes were as different as day and night, with the secessionist voting being entirely corrupt and invalid in results.
“No one else has veto power over their right to leave. It is an inherent right and in accordance with the “laws of nature, and of Nature’s God...””
The State of Carolina conveyed the power to alienate the State of Carolina to the United States in Congress assembled and the legislatures of the states when South Carolina voluntarily acceded to the union of the states using the same procedure. South Carolina has the power to secede from the union with the United States in the exact same manner it used to accede to the union; i.e. the agreement of the Congress assembled and the confirmation of each state legislature.
I clicked on each of your links, and most of that material is new information for me.
Although two of my great-great grandfathers fought for the Union, and they were both wounded in the War, my basic Constitutional sympathies have always been with the South.
The Southern states would have never ratified the Constitution had they understood what Lincoln and the Northern states would do to that document 70 years later.
I also don't understand what rational end point Lincoln envisioned for the War.
Approximately half of the people living in the South were slaves. Did Lincoln really believe that former slaves could live peacefully and prosperously side-by-side with their former slave masters after the Union Army utterly destroyed the South's economy?
I have never admired Lincoln. In my mind, he had one, and only one, goal - free the slaves.
But, he had no concern whatever for the legal, economic, political, and cultural consequences that followed.
“my basic Constitutional sympathies have always been with the South.”
Given how the secessionists and Confederate leadership largely only paid lip service to the U.S. Constitution and the Confederate constitutions to serve their covert quest for power and wealth at the expense of everyone else, South and North, it is impossible to be sympathetic.
“The Southern states would have never ratified the Constitution had they understood what Lincoln and the Northern states would do to that document 70 years later.”
Southern pro-slavery leaders not only understood and anticipated the day must come when slavery would become challenged by the U.S. electorate, they strategized from the very beginning before the Constitution was even adopted as to how they would either turn north and capture political control of the northern political institutions through cities such as New York and Cincinatti or proceed south and west with a secession of the slave states to escape the abolition of their slave empire and capture Latin American states to expand their slave empire.
Your comment also raises the question of what you think Lincoln did to the Constitution 70 years later? It also raises the question of why you have not questioned here what the Confederate leadership did to the Constitution?
“I also don’t understand what rational end point Lincoln envisioned for the War.”
That is a very easy question to answer. He envisioned saving 1. the remaining United States from a Confederate invasion and conquest and 2. restoring the Union of the United States as mandated by the U.S. Constitution in its various articles concerning insurrections and preserving a Republicn form of government. Everything else was a subordinate objective, including the question of slavery.
“Approximately half of the people living in the South were slaves. Did Lincoln really believe that former slaves could live peacefully and prosperously side-by-side with their former slave masters after the Union Army utterly destroyed the South’s economy?”
Note, the Confederate States of America utterly destroyed their own economies before the U.S. armies even arrived in their states. The rich plantation owners turned a blind eye towards the corrupt taxation their hireling tax collectors were literally robbing from Southern homes to make the rich landlords even wealthier and more powerful. This exploitation by the leaders of the secession movement finally convinced Unionist and Confederate sympathizers alike that their rich landlords were deliberately starving their families and impoverishing them like robber barons. This resulted in 50 percent desertion rates from the Confederate armies.
“I have never admired Lincoln. In my mind, he had one, and only one, goal - free the slaves.”
That is a key element in the fake Lost Cause mythology used as disinformation to win sympathy for the Confederate cause. It really didn’t matter who or which Republican had been elected, Lincoln, Douglas, or elsewise, anyone who was not their Southern candidate and fellow conspirator was going to signal the long planned for secession of the slave states to begin the creation of a slave empire under heir own control and free of outside interference with their long term plans of conquest.
It is sometimes said how extraordinary times make extraordinary leaders. Lincoln may fit that description, because he happened to occupy the Office of the President at the point in time when the Southern conspiracy to create a slave empire beginning with a secession of the slave states matured and became implemented months before Lincoln was inaugurated as President.
“But, he had no concern whatever for the legal, economic, political, and cultural consequences that followed.”
I would observe the contrary and describe how Lincoln exercised tremendous patience and restraint often markedly absent in his opponents. It is often mentioned how the secession of a number of states were supposedly prompted by Lincoln’s callup of 75,000 troops to suppress the armed insurrection. Note how these same sources of that information fail to mention how the Confederacy ordered the callup of an army of 100,000 men a full one and one-half months before Lincoln called for only 75,000 troops in a defensive response. Also note how they fail to mention how an elaborate network of the secessionists conspired to intercept Lincoln’s train and murder Lincoln as he was on his way from Illinois to Washington, D.C for his inauguration as President. Yes, he showed tremendous restraint and a willingness to negotiate despite the unprecedented efforts to assassinate him and threaten invasion of the northern states. Can you imagine Governor Pickens or a number of other Confederate conspirators demonstrating that kind of humility and patience with their enemy vowing personal their destruction?
Makes as much sense as your other posts I guess.
What did they do?
I also don't understand what rational end point Lincoln envisioned for the War.
I would instead ask what rational endpoint the Southern states envisioned for the war. War was, after all, their choice for furthering their own goals.
Approximately half of the people living in the South were slaves. Did Lincoln really believe that former slaves could live peacefully and prosperously side-by-side with their former slave masters after the Union Army utterly destroyed the South's economy?
What was the alternative?
I have never admired Lincoln. In my mind, he had one, and only one, goal - free the slaves.
Assuming for a moment that were true, is there something wrong with wanting to end such an evil institution as slavery?
But, he had no concern whatever for the legal, economic, political, and cultural consequences that followed.
I don't think you are correct on that.
‘Yahhhh..Your mother wears combat boots!’
Makes as much sense as your other posts I guess.
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I was trying to end this argument in a friendly way.
You know you’re wrong.
You have it in writing the racist things Lincoln said about blacks.
He didn’t care about them, he didn’t want the money made from the South to escape- that why HE STARTED A WAR THAT MURDERED OVER 800,000 AND WOUNDED A MILLION OF HIS FELLOW AMERICANS.
Lincoln was a black hater and a mass murderer. He should have been hung for war crimes.
What he allowed that psycho, Sherman, to do was atrocious.
I hope they’re both burning in h*ll.
But at least Lincoln got some of what was coming to him while on earth. Booth, although he paid dearly himself, got him good.
That’s a fairly disgusting POV. How do you live with yourself?
I live quite well and with myself quite well, thank you.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
It’s not surprising that you would see a rancid POS like boothe as a hero.
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