Posted on 02/17/2016 9:53:55 PM PST by TroutStalker
Last month, some of President Obama's top intelligence advisers met in Silicon Valley with Apple's chief, Timothy D. Cook, and other technology leaders in what seemed to be a public rapprochement in their long-running dispute over the encryption safeguards built into their devices.
But behind the scenes, relations were tense, as lawyers for the Obama administration and Apple held closely guarded discussions for over two months about one particularly urgent case: The F.B.I. wanted Apple to help "unlock" an iPhone used by one of the two attackers who killed 14 people in San Bernardino, Calif., in December, but Apple was resisting.
When the talks collapsed, a federal magistrate judge, at the Justice Department's request, ordered Apple to bypass security functions on the phone. The order set off a furious public battle on Wednesday between the Obama administration and one of the world's most valuable companies in a dispute with far-reaching legal implications.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
The legality of a demand to comply with the law does not depend on the willingness of the person named to comply. The law simply says they have probable cause to gain access to the property or objects named in the warrant;
In an unusually detailed directive, Magistrate Judge Sheri Pym of the Federal District Court for the District of Central California ordered Apple to provide “reasonable technical assistance†to the F.B.I. in unlocking the phone. That assistance should allow investigators to “bypass or erase the auto-erase function†on the phone, among other steps, she wrote.
This is as specific a request as you could probably ask for and completely in line with the 4th amendment.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If it is Apples position that they will not coply, the law then pursues whatever course they can see as necessary. This isn’t about what Apple can or won’t do, anymore than if I am home and don’t want them to come into my house. I can fight or comply. That’s MY choice, but to say Appl has a right not to comply is just wrong.
“what state are you from, so I can use “#### values†as an insult every chance I get?”
Maine. Got plenty of moose jokes for ya if you want. My Dad’s folks were all from Idaho. Some good spud jokes if you want. I’m a big thick headed Mick. Got plenty of Irish jokes for you if you want. Anything else I can do for you, Bud?
But Apple does not have access to the property named in the warrant - they are trying to force Apple to CREATE a way to access the data. I don' think you can use a warrant to force someone to create something that doesn't exist...
Well I understand the Gov just wants to check out this ONE phone and will not do anything else.
This is the same Govt that...
Don’t worry about the seat belts, this is just a safety thing that is there if you want it we would NEVER demand or force you to use it.
Don’t worry about the no smoking. We just want people in enclosed areas like restaurants to be able to have an area where they can enjoy their meal without smoke.
Here Charlie Brown, kick the football. I promise I won’t pull it. Lucy.
We know one could go on for hours etc...
BTW, just how much would all this publicity for Apple have costed them had they had to pay for it?
We have come a long way from ‘The checks in the mail’ and ‘I won’t do that’ haven’t we....
What do they call it? Saturation Point?
Wrong analogy. In your example, the warrant would be to search your home. There is no warrant to search anything that Apple owns or controls.
This would be like using a warrant to force you to break into your neighbor's house in order to get evidence for the police. They are trying to force Apple to become agents of the police to do something the police are not able to do on their own. So you would be comfortable with the police being able to force your neighbor to spy on on you or break into your home and gather evidence against you?
“But Apple does not have access to the property named in the warrant - they are trying to force Apple to CREATE a way to access the data. I don’ think you can use a warrant to force someone to create something that doesn’t exist...”
The law doesn’t create reasons why you can not be able to comply or do to escape it. That’s why the Constituion is ther, to protect us from the Government if they are doing something wrong. Looking for mass murderin mofo’s is probably not a bad thing. If I owned a company that I knew was going to face this issue, (warrants for phone traces have been going on a looooonnnnng time) I’d try to bluff through it first, too, if I had a zillion lawyers and was the biggest company on the planet. But Apple can unlock this phone. We all know that. if they can’t, they could be looking at fines for each day they don’t produce or something else. Look, it’s not like Apple can’t do this, they are flexing.
I hope they don’t keep dragging it out. Every day that goes by the trail gets colder on those murdering savages. I’d like to find a couple more of their “friends.”
Remember those witnesses who swore they saw THREE SHOOTERS? It's all making sense now..
“Wrong analogy. In your example, the warrant would be to search your home. There is no warrant to search anything that Apple owns or controls.”
And you know this how?
The government could have kept them out of the country if they really wanted to. They already knew they were potential terrorists and they let them back in. Why should Apple pay for their negligence?
“Why should Apple pay for their negligence?”
They aren’t asking Apple to pay for letting in the murdering c’s, they are asking them to help catch them. Why would Apple help? Is that the question? Wouldn’t you?
I’d help. Then I’d ask if I could be there if I could catch any more of them.
Yup. What the government is attempting to do is called ‘involuntary servitude’. There is simply no authority for the FBI or any other organ of the government to compel the company to make anything. They can compel the firm to hand over something the company possesses under due process of law but in this case I believe the ‘defeat’ system/program for the encryption for the operating system version they wish to obtain does not exist.
My Late Uncle’s Best Friend , a Port Authority Police Officer died in the collapse of Tower One.
I’m not sure if they ever found his remains.
There are plenty of People in New York that share the same Values of People Posting on this Site. Unfortunately, like me in CA, they are outnumbered.
Hard to believe that it’s the same place where my Older Brother would take his .22 Rifle to Middle School to participate in the Shooting Club.
Because Apple does not possess the phone or access to the data - so you cannot get a valid warrant for something they do not have. It is not Apple’s data they want - it is the terrorist’s data. They want to force Apple to create something that does not currently exist. You can’t have a warrant for something that doesn’t exist but that you THINK can be created.
I am from Oregon.
Please feel free to insult every pinhead that lives along the I-5 corridor - especially Portland, Eugene, and Ashland.
If the Obamanists want to get into the phone, how do we know they don’t want to tamper with evidence and then later declare terrorists as civil rights leaders?
“He could have been my son”.
“Because Apple does not possess the phone or access to the data - so you cannot get a valid warrant for something they do not have.”
How do you know this? Because they said so?
Once again, you are not making an argument that has any base in reality. Yuuuuuuuge corporations HAVE been known to lie about shit.
This might come as a shock to you, but when people get pulled over for probable cause and they are asked to open the trunk...almost NONE of them have a key! They usually claim that there wasn’t a key when they bought it and they have no idea what’s in there!
“but in this case I believe the ‘defeat’ system/program for the encryption for the operating system version they wish to obtain does not exist.”
Involuntary Servitude has nothing to do with this warrant. That’s ridiculous. Involuntary servitude or Involuntary slavery is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person’s will to benefit another, under some form of coercion other than the worker’s financial needs. The need for Apple “to Labor” is nowhere near proven.
Well, that’s OK. The Feds Can send an army of techs in and search for it. That’s what they do when they have a warrant that the person says they don’t have. Feel sorry for the poor bastards in that detail, though. Plowing through all that. Could tie Apple in knots for years.
Because the FBI said so! The FBI is not claiming that Apple has access to the phone, or that the data is stored on their servers somewhere - that would be the subject of a legal warrant. The FBI has the phone that has the data, but cannot access it. The FBI is claiming that they can force Apple to create a new product that will allow them to brute force the PIN without the data being erased. Whether or not such a tool can be created, I don't know - it depends upon how the software has been coded, if there are vulnerabilities that can be exploited. But a bigger question is whether the government can force anyone to create something new.
It am learning a lot about Trump supporters. They have no problem with government bailouts of student loans (once Trump came out in favor of such); they are in favor of unconstitutional executive orders (as long as Trump is in charge); they have no problem with taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood (once Trump admitted he was in favor of such); they no longer support Israel against the Muslims (once Trump declared himself neutral); they are in favor of the Kelo decision and having big government take property to give to cronies (since Trump is in favor of it); they agree with Code Pink and Democrats that "Bush lied and people died" (once Trump said as much); and now they are in favor of big government being able to force companies and people to create new ways for them to access your data (because Trump thinks its okay). As I have said repeatedly, Trump and his followers may be many things, but they are not conservatives nor constitutionalists.
By the way, I am not just making up charges - each of these are examples of things that Trump supporters on this very forum have been willing to support once Trump came out in favor of them.
Bingo. An astute observation. This whole unlock phone thing is an attempt by FedGov to subvert encryption; not to stop terrorism.
Apple has not been convicted of a crime in this case nor has it even been accused of any offense. They are being compelled to create something they do not possess, against the company’s will to benefit another(Involuntary Servitude). It’s not Apple’s duty to prove anything in this case. it’s the government’s. There is no ‘probable cause’ here or else it would have been stated in the warrant. The Feds can attempt to ‘send in an army of techs’ to find something that doesn’t exist. You and all the other taxpayers will be picking up the tab for the ‘poor bastards in that detail’.......
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