Posted on 02/18/2016 3:19:08 PM PST by Kazan
If they violate the unalienable nature of the supreme individual God-given right, and/or surrender the absolutely essential requirement for equal protection under the law for that supreme right.
Because those two things are the ONLY real moral, constitutional, and legal arguments there are against abortion on demand.
Not only is it immoral and unconstitutional to sacrifice those two things, we now have more than forty years of stark bloody evidence that sacrificing those two things doesn’t work.
“You shall not murder.”
— Exodus 20:13
No exceptions.
“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law.”
— The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution
No exceptions.
“No State shall deprive any person of life without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
— The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
No exceptions.
ALL of our state constitutions make the exact same demand for equal protection for the supreme God-given, unalienable, individual right, by the way.
No exceptions.
Make exceptions and the whole framework of the American claim to self-government in liberty is gone.
Well we winning so there’s that. When I began supporting Trump after Walker suspended his campaign, I NEVER thought he would go this far. It has been an exciting ride. He is so passionate about fixing America and making us REALLY number 1 again. I think it is great. I think for once we are finally going to elect a non politician in our country. That is desperately needed. We have had all these politicians and all they have done is screw it up.
You can stop lecturing me about the value of life; we share the same goals.
...
You know, it’s one thing to believe that. It’s another thing to demand all or nothing and to choose ‘nothing’ when you can’t have ‘all.’
My position is to save every life possible while working towards the same goal of no abortion and all lives protected. What’s more, taking every victory that I can, no matter how small, and never giving up the fight, will make the restoration of the right to life easier and FASTER than your idea. Start with dumping Roe, and then take the fight to the states. Once it’s established that unborn life has value, it is easier to convince people about the difficult cases.
Quite frankly, it’s been pretty much proven that abortion isn’t going away until we are able to bring about an overall revolution in ideology throughout the US. We’ve spent the last 44 years fighting the fight, and Roe hasn’t gone anywhere. And your refusal to fight is just leading to more and more death.
THOU SHALL NOT MURDER. And you are proposing that we should allow murders to happen just because we can’t yet stop all of them.
Your position seems to parallel the bizarre idea that until we free every slave, we should not free any. Or until we capture every murderer, we should not capture any. Or until we dump every corrupt politician, we should not dump any. And you are literally saying that until we save every life, we can’t save any of them.
And you are content to allow children to be slaughtered unless you can suddenly make everything perfect in one fell swoop.
...
You sick, twisted, holier-than-thou freak. And the only reason I still use that term is because I gave up profanity for Lent.
I will not speak to you further. Good day.
No matter what you think of me, your Utilitarian strategy is immoral and unconstitutional. And it doesn’t work. How many more decades of utter failure is it going to take before you realize that?
I have seen many of your posts here and I respect you for most of them. TRUMP!!! has a long way to go to earn my confidence. He can easily be elected or defeated with or without my vote but I view my vote as a moral responsibility before God.
When I go to meet my Maker, I hae to explain voting for Nixon twice, Feckless Ford, George H. W. Bush twice, Bob Dole, Dubya twice and McCain. Fortunately, I shall, at least, not have Moral Monster Mitt Romney on my conscience, thanks to Eternal Vigilance and his persuasive ability.
If I am offered the choice of Demonrat Boogiewoman or Demonrat Comrade Bernie, "Independent" Nincompoop Nanny Bloomberg and The Donald, I may vote for The Donald though it would be an extremely hard vote and not assisted by the vitriolic attacks on Cruz and even Rubio by The Donald's pom pom girls on FR. I will certainly vote for Cruz in the primary.
As to November, Eternal Vigilance (Tom Hoefling) is standing again for POTUS and voting for him is always a comfortable and moral vote. I am not as perfect as EV and, if Trump wants my vote, he must convince me that his Donald Come Lately claims to be pro-life are not just an attempt to engage in convenient lies. I care about many issues but none, not even guns, approaches pro-life in importance to me.
May God bless you and yours!
I think what bothers me about the way he views the Supreme Court. It’s not about whether it’s constitutional or not but if it’s the decision he agrees or wants out of the court. It’s always I;ll make them change this one or that one, depending on his preference that day,
I tend to agree with saving every savable child while NEVER compromising to allow any of them to be slaughtered and "never giving up the fight." I can vote for imperfect legislation but only while telling the pro-abort enemy that I make no deals and, like Wilberforce, I shall return again and again demanding complete abolition of abortion, and never morally countenance a single innocent death or ayone who condones such deaths in a grisly game of Let's Make a Deal.
Your uncharitable temper tantrum against Eternal Vigilance is unwarranted.
As to "taking the fight to the states," forty-three years of largely unrestrained baby murders (60+ million and counting) are going to make that a bit of an impractical path. Seemingly quite constitutional, given the Tenth Amendment but the far more practical answer is actually contained in the Herod Blackmun decision on Roe vs. Wade. The evil old bastard noted at the outset of his murderous screed that, IF the unborn were to be viewed as "persons," then the states would have every right, if not an obligation, to outlaw abortion under the Fourteenth Amendment. "Personhood" is thus the key.
As a pro-life criminal defense trial lawyer, I used to disagree but I have changed my mind. BTW, I used to use your argument as to saving every possible life even if all were not saved. I would still use that argument as follows:
A young idealistic fireman who has spared absolutely no effort in perfecting his craft, including testifying before municipal boards and his state's legislature for improvements in the fire code that would save lives, is called to the scene of a serious apartment house fire. The building has three equal-sized portions. One wing is totally engulfed when he arrives. No one who has not already escaped can possibly be alive in that wing. The other wing is very mildly involved and is still quite survivable by prompt evacuation. The central portion is more heavily involved than the safer portion but requires immediate attention or more lives will be lost.
Throwing his hands up in disgust and going home complaining about the idiots who did not listen to his pleas for fire safety is simply NOT a moral alternative. People who are threatened with death and grievous injury are depending on him and his colleagues and they cannot morally abandon their responsibilities even though they risk death to do their duty. He stays and does his very best but some folks subsequently die of smoke inhalation or being burned to death or whatever. We aren't perfect but we can try to do our best.
You are bashing EV for his virtues and not for his sins. At least here on FR, I likely know him better than you do. He s raising a gold standard of pro-life and of constitutionalism. Someone must do that. Judy Brown and the American Life League do likewise.
EV is not responsible for a single death of an unborn that I know of. That is on Herod Blackmun and SCOTUS (then known as Black and White and the Seven Shades of Grey although Democrat Whizzer White and William Rehnquist dissented) and each and every gutless other SCOTUS "justice," and each and every inferior federal and state court judge who hide behind stare decisis because they value their careers and having their posteriors smooched by every lawyer and litigant: Yes, your Honor! No, Your Honor! Whatever you say, Your Honor! and every gutless politician who also values his/her "career" over the lives of 60+ million dead babies and counting.
EV is certainly NOT a "sick, twisted, holier than thou freak" or whatever profanity you gave up for Lent. EV is not Catholic. I am and so, likely, are you if you actually give up anything for Lent. Would you call Pope John Paul I, Pope St. John Pal II, or Pope Benedict XVI any of those names. None of them were noted for rationalizing baby-killing of any baby just because the challenge of stopping the killing is just so damn hard!
All of life is not just playing Let's Make a Deal! If you vote for a bill that criminalizes all abortions after the first trimester (regardless of court opinions because this is between you and God) but the bill specifies that all first trimester abortions are peachy keen, do you really apply those terms (sick, twisted...) to someone who votes no on the basis that he has no moral authority to approve the killing of any innocent person? I don't think I would like to argue that case before God Who lovingly created each and every child for His purposes. That argument is a non-starter with eternal consequences that are literally damn harder.
Does that make me a "sick, twisted, holier than thou freak?" If so, I guess guilty, guilty, guilty! I will admit that, unlike EV, I might vote for such a bill but I would at least admit to myself and to God that to do so is gravely sinful and a material co-operation with abortion, whatever rationalizations may be applied.
I would certainly not revile those more moral than I when they criticize my moral failings.
We can talk another time, if you are up to it about your claim that "we" have spent 44 years "fighting the fight." I know I have "given at the office and at a lot of courthouses" but other than letters to the editor and internet exchanges, what have YOU done personally in that fight?
That is one problem and a critically important one with TRUMP!!! There are also many others.
As always, I deeply appreciate your friendship and kind words.
Re the burning building analogy:
Morally and constitutionally the statutes under discussion here would be as if they passed a “law” granting a license to all arsonists to go ahead and start fires and kill everyone in the buildings they are hired to burn as long as they do the dirty deed before Labor Day.
And oh, before Labor Day all the fire escapes must be padlocked, by “law.”
Have you seen the latest outrage of the regulationists? Several “pro-life” legislators in Utah, with the support of the “pro-life” governor, are now proposing that the victims, the innocent babies, be anesthetized before they are murdered.
The only “logical” next step into a Brave New World for the propagators of “fetal pain” legislation, right?
Abominable. Detestable. Morally bankrupt.
God have mercy.
Glad to see Trump is not tone deaf to conservatives who are very pro-life. Happy to hear him pledge this. I think he will be a man of his word and do this if he is elected president.
My first choice is still Cruz, but Trump has a lot going for him. My first two picks for president are doing the best in the polls. They still may end up as a team. Who knows?
GOPe must be really depressed. Hope they will finally start to take Tea Party conservatism seriously.
Thank-you for your reply. I’m scared that Trump believes he’s smarter than the people that wrote the constitution. So of course, he’s smarter and knows better what’s right for America than the founders and in turn can “Make America Great Again” in his image
Bingo, we have the 10% of the 10% here on FR, the John Birch Society purists who love fellating themselves about fantasies that it's 1980 and Cruz is Ronald Reagan with his perfect ACU 100% rating riding in to save the day. I mean he sounds like Limbaugh and Levin and he has that Southern Drawl, therefore he must be our savior. They jump on any single issue, like abortion and bulldog it. What purists do and why the purist wing of the Republican party are perpetual losers. Purists are for academia and radio talk shows, not for the real world. Purists and radio talk show myrmidons live in the world of perpetual angst about how their fellow Americans are so stupid, about how they don't get it, about how lazy, corrupt and gullible they are. They are on the constant hunt for messiahs, that perfect voice that if they just articulate conservatism vociferously enough, America will be converted.
I am probably a little above the average age here and have learned in my half century on this blue marble that you cannot evangelize people about spiritual or political matters, people have to come to that realization on their own, through personal experience or a life changing event. Is Trump a perfect candidate, oh h*ll no, but is he better than the alternative...worlds away. It's about knowing real evil and standing in the breach when confronted with it. Some of you really need to challenge yourself as to why you have pointed your guns at the wrong side here. Us Trump supporters don't hate Cruz, we don't, but some of you Cruz supporters, I think if Jesus himself ran for office you would run YouTube videos showing how he contradicted himself. Shame on you who casts the first stone. Have any of you purists changed your mind, modified your opinion, and yes contradicted yourself?...oh you haven't.. well you're either a liar or worse. Some of you really need to examine why you are here, why you are so angry, why you hate so much.
Exactly! There is so much bitterness and ugliness. I've read posts by some longtime, respected FReepers that have shocked me with their nastiness towards Trump supporters. Even if one is just Trump tolerant the attacks are bad.
We need to survive this "silly season" so we can unite and defeat the true rotten candidate---- Hillary! or Sanders.
“...Cruz really is a talker and not a doer.”
I’m not sure I’d go THAT far...
IMO, he’s a do’er, but he’s not a LEADER. Leaders get others to follow, to pick-up up ‘the cause’. He’s done a few (good), “To ME!” battle cries, but few have picked up the banner. He’s a good talker, not much else. He’d make a damn good AG or SCOTUS nominee.
Trump on the other hand...
So why is Trump supporting Planned Parenthood?
Doesn’t he know that PP only has one budget?
Does he not understand how business works?
Well, some campaigns know they're looking at losing more and more ground so they do whatever they feel is necessary to stay in the race like spreading "dropping out" rumors, photoshopping pictures of candidates with Obama, and lying about soundbites.
It's sad, really, to see a once respected man and his supporters go down this dirt road.
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