Posted on 06/20/2016 11:33:04 AM PDT by Kaslin
No sensor I can think of showed a climb. None.
What was the most telling thing was that just a few hours after the incident Bill Clinton went on TV to proclaim that no DoD sensor data was available. BS. Anyone who has ever been in that field knows what sensor data was available for that flight and there was plenty of it.
Unlike the CIA, I spoke to the person best in position to make that assessment. He is an airline captain who was flying PIC, at virtually the same altitude as TWA800 staring at that plane when it exploded. I’ve spoken with this guy three times, once for more than an hour. (Pilots like to talk to other pilots, even single engine guys like me.) He emphatically told me that NOTHING CLIMBED.
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What’s his name?
There was the trail across several seats of a chemical that was analyzed by an outside laboratory that claimed the residue was essentially solid rocket fuel exhaust but that the FBI claimed was Contact Cement used to adhere the seat back cloth on just those row's upholstery to the foam rubber. Boeing said they did not use anything like that for adhesive and that all seats would use the same adhesive.
An airline pilot who was part of the investigation and his wife were brought up on charges of stealing aircraft wreckage souvenirs, which was a law for the general public removing pieces from the wreckage sites, for taking a small section of the cloth to submit it to the outside lab when they could not get any answers to their questions about why there was this obvious track across the reconstructed cabin. When they kept making waves about it the seats were moved so the track was not obvious anymore.
As I recall there were strange ball bearing like spheres that penetrated many of the bodies recovered. There were also many puncture holes in the fuselage from similar holes. There was an obvious entry hole on one side of the fuselage and an exist on the other. . . photos were shown and then withdrawn. Next time those areas of the aircraft reconstruction were shown, no holes, the holes had been pushed back together so they looked just like torn metal instead of entry and exit holes. There was damage on the left wing (IIRC) that according to military ordnance specialist had all the appearance of high velocity explosive damage, not low velocity damage. These were claimed to be water damage caused by water impact. The ordnance experts said that was impossible. These suspicious explaining of every strange thing away and ignoring experts all added up to making people suspect that there was a cover up in progress.
The NTSB accepted the FBI's "expert" on metallurgy and his conclusions on the event. He was merely a self-taught FBI agent who had no degree in metallurgy. In later years his claims that one could identify bullets by their distinctive metallurgy that resulted in the conviction of numerous defendants turned out to be dead wrong when actual metallurgist showed that bullets made by qualified bullet manufacturers were the SAME over several years and that one batch of metal was essentially identical to another from the same manufacturer because their quality control of their alloying process was that good. This finding resulted in the overturning of numerous convictions in which the FBI metallurgy lab had identified bullets as coming from the same batch etc. and the conviction hung on the defendant owning bullets by that manufacturer, all on this FBI "expert's" claims of expertise, and that bullets would be different in different boxes and could be matched to those in the same box! It was HIS testimony when only 10% of TWA-800 had been recovered that no evidence explosives had been found.
In actual fact, evidence HAD been found. There were traces of explosives on the seats, but they pooh-poohed that by saying that was just residue of a bomb-sniffing dog training exercise that had been done on the plane a couple of weeks before the disaster, which they announced quite vocally. However, it turns out that it was NOT the same plane where the training exercise took place. That they did not announce vocally when the records of the training exercise were examined and the aircraft registration numbers were compared. They did not match. It was another 747 entirely. So, one has to ask, did the residues of explosives on TWA-800's plane come from?
Those questions, like the actual source of the reddish "rocket fuel residue/contact cement", depending on who you believe, went un-answered. (Incidentally the two who took the sample were not allow to use the reason they took the sample in their trial as evidence, or the results they got! Also, incidentally, the track indicated by those seats went from those openings in the fuselage that seemed to be a missile entry and exit. Just coincidence? Why did they move the seats to positions they did not belong in afterwards to obfuscate the trail of red residue if it was just contact cement?)
I ask once again, because in spite of all your typing, you gave no answer:
In your calculations how did you account for the loss of 80,000 pounds when the nose section separated? How did that affect lift and stall speed?
Since you said you did calculations and supposedly your conclusions are better than those of the NTSB, what was the new stall speed once the 80,000 pound front section separated?
Another big pile of words isn’t sufficient. I want to see a specific number to be convinced.
How much cargo shifted? Did that fully functional and not-noseless 747 climb 3800 feet before stalling and falling out of the sky? No? Why not?
How much cargo shifted? Did that fully functional and not-noseless 747 climb 3800 feet before stalling and falling out of the sky? No? Why not?
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I already made my point. You said an unbalanced aircraft couldn’t fly. You were wrong.
There were several military radars that showed the entire event, including one that showed two blips, possibly three, of a mach 2 object coming toward and intersecting the TWA-800 aircraft. These military radar would show not only distance and direction, but also altitude, not relying on transponder returns for that data. ALL of these military radar recordings were immediately sent to the White House and were never seen again.
It flew like a rock. . . It did not fly under any lift. What lift it had was pulling it backwards.
Interesting that you ask!
Of course I asked him if he had seen any sign of a missile and he was quite certain he had not. He told me that the only time the FBI talked to him, at least by that time which was around December 1997, was a day or two after TWA800 went down. They also asked him about a missile and he told them what he told me. He thought that was why they never bothered with him again.
But I convinced him that there was a good reason why he probably didn't see a missile. Airplanes have virtually no downward forward visibility. Since he was close to, and nearly level with TWA800, the missile(s) would have been coming from underneath him and probably only in his field of vision for milliseconds. So none probably would have registered with him. He obviously thought enough of this suggestion that when he subsequently testified before the NTSB, he told them he wasn't really in a position to see a missile if one were there.
[BTW, I got to speak to him when I did because I was puzzled by the appearance of an airline crew where I was regularly staying while on business near Trenton, NJ. It didn't occur to me that Trenton had commercial traffic so I thought some weird occurrence forced them there from Philly or Newark. One of the crew told me they were from Eastwind Airlines, and it didn't take me long to ask whomever I was speaking with if he knew David McClaine. My acquaintance told me he was their captain and at the hotel. He offered to introduce me at breakfast the next morning, which he did.]
ML/NJ
Dramatic footage: Cargo Boeing 747 crashes at Bagram Airfield
That one had been climbing, came to a complete stop and then came straight down.
Which reminds me of a story I heard about how this writer writes his screenplays, saying he started at the ending and worked backward.
That CIA video was "Made for TV", too. They started with the ending they wanted and worked backwards, filling in the details as necessary.
Clinton won re-election and history's been written.
And we know the rest: "What difference, at this point, does it make?"
Good info Sword! I still can’t figure out why the blown to pieces plane was even brought up from the ocean’s floor in the first place. If the Gov. new soon after what took it down, as in a missile, why would they even rebuild it and then have to try to cover up/lie about explosive residue and missile entry/exit points that they had to have known would be present. They could have lied to the public, that bringing the remains back to land to rebuild was to much of a task, do hard to do, etc. etc. etc. any number of the basic type lies we get from the Gov. Any thoughts on that angle Sword?
David McClaine. See post #169 on this thread for more info.
ML/NJ
But I assume there was several miles of separation between the two and he might have been able to see a missile rising to meet the plane. The fact that he didn't is evidence supporting the conclusion that it wasn't a missile that brought the airplane down but instead a terrorist bomb of some sort.
When we were told, by multiple 747 pilots, experts in that field, that within the space of 1 to 2 seconds of the loss of the nose, that aircraft was already in stall, there was no need for knowing the "stall speed" to figure out what was happening to that aircraft: it was still moving at a ground speed of 358 knots, ergo, that was the stall speed of that noseless aircraft in that position. It was falling, just like the one in your video.
There was ZERO lift pushing that plane up. What lift there was, was pulling it over backwards until all partial vacuum on the upper part of the wing was lost. The engines were idle, so there was no thrust to push it upwards with opposite and equal reaction (they could not lift an approximate 500,000 dead weight anyway with only approximately 264,000 pounds of combined thrust even if they were working at 100% full power; they are not rocket engines with huge amounts of thrust, they're not intended to do that.
Easy. The wreckage was only 115-130 deep in the Ocean. It was too easy for anyone to reach and research themselves. They couldn't leave it there so they had to bring it up so they could control access to the crime scene. Had it been in deeper water that was not disable except with much more sophisticated equipment and lots of expense, then they could have declared it a cemetery, controlled access, and be done with it. But this was just too shallow, easily reachable with minimal equipment. They had to bring it up and "fix" it.
It flew like a rock. . . It did not fly under any lift. What lift it had was pulling it backwards.
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Regardless, it gained some altitude after the cargo shift and was unbalanced.
Likewise, TWA800 gained altitude after the nose came off according to the NTSB. I find their claim and evidence more convincing than yours.
When we were told, by multiple 747 pilots, experts in that field, that within the space of 1 to 2 seconds of the loss of the nose, that aircraft was already in stall, there was no need for knowing the “stall speed” to figure out what was happening to that aircraft: it was still moving at a ground speed of 358 knots, ergo, that was the stall speed of that noseless aircraft in that position.
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How many of those 747 pilots had flown an aircraft that had just lost 80,000 pounds in weight? And your stall speed isn’t the result of calculations, it’s simply derived from the conclusion you want.
Smokeblowers annoy me.
Have you ever been pilot in command of an airplane? Have you ever been withheld a clearance that you requested until you cleared a plane you could see with your own eyes? (You stare at it. You don't look down at the ocean.)
I guess this pilot was just stupid and wound up agreeing with me that there was a good chance that a missile or missiles were involved but he might not have seen them.
And then there are the hundreds of eyewitnesses who did see a missile or missiles.
Terrorist bomb, my @$$ !
ML/NJ
That’s a lot of effort wasted.
The guys you’re responding to think the government is always right whenever science and alphabetic agencies are involved.
You know, like “climate change”.
Hell, they even talk the same way about “denialists” and what they want to do to them.
The Clinton administration was the best one ever.
They would never kill women and children for political reasons. The Branch Davidians were a bunch of non-people because racism.
Clinton did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky. They found Clinton’s semen because it was planted by a vast right wing conspiracy.
Also, Hillary Clinton, being a Clinton, is a fine upstanding woman who people hate because she’s a woman.
She and all those agencies told us that Benghazi was because of an Islamaphobic internet video, so it’s got to be true, because they even found the guy who did it and put him in jail!
The Clintons said, and so dang it, I believe it!
/s
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