Russia Gains When Donald Trump Trashes NATO (The NY Slimes Idiotorial Board Speaks)

The New York Slimes ^ | 2017-01-17 | The NY Slimes Idiotorial Board

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Many people in the United States and abroad have consoled themselves by assuming that Donald Trump’s outrageous statements were just politically driven, and he’d temper them once he became president. That thinking seems more wishful than ever when the man chosen to lead the world’s most powerful country keeps saying that two pillars of postwar security and prosperity — the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the European Union — are obsolete.

Mr. Trump’s latest salvo against stalwart American allies came in a joint interview over the weekend with The Times of London and Bild, a German newspaper. His published remarks have angered and shaken America’s closest allies in Europe.

Mr. Trump said NATO was obsolete because it had failed to resist terrorism, and he repeated earlier charges that some of its members were not paying their fair share. He described the European Union as “basically a vehicle for Germany” and predicted that other European nations would probably follow Britain’s lead by leaving it.

Then came potshots at Germany’s chancellor, Angela Merkel, a strong leader who is facing a tough re-election. He called her brave decision to open Germany’s borders to migrants and refugees a “very catastrophic mistake.” He also suggested that he saw no difference between Ms. Merkel and Vladimir Putin, saying he would, at least initially, trust them equally, even though it was the Russian president who meddled with the American election, bombed civilians in Syria, crushed dissent in his own country and invaded Ukraine.

[xp38]

Drain the bars!

[FlingWingFlyer]

Good one. ;)

[nathanbedford]

The first thing to do is to clear away the implication of the New York Times that what Donald Trump said is not just unfortunate but factually wrong.

It is factually correct to state that many nations in NATO are not paying their fair share (2% of GNP for defense); Europe has in many respects fallen short in the war against terrorism; the European Union is "basically a (trade) vehicle for Germany"; it is likely that other nations will follow Britain's exit from the EU; Angela Merkel is a strong leader; she is facing a tough reelection; her decision to open Germany's borders to migrants and refugees was not a "brave decision" but instead a "very catastrophic mistake".

The second thing to do is to assign weight to various aspects of our relationship to Europe.

The North Atlantic Treaty Alliance has been characterized as the most successful alliance in history and that characterization is probably justified because it in fact perfectly served its originating purpose, the protection of Western Europe against the overwhelming conventional might of the Soviet Union after World War II. On the downside, America as been footing the bill for that protection into an era when much of Europe is wealthier than much of America. Worse, article 5 of the alliance puts America in the reactive position of being drawn into a war at a time and place of Russia's choosing along a huge border, an arc from Turkey well into the Arctic. In other words we have surrendered the power to declare war to more than a score of European countries.

Strategically, NATO is in danger of becoming weak because it is trying to be strong everywhere at America's expense. We are particularly vulnerable in the Baltic and the possibility of stopping a Russian incursion, at least initially, is nil. Formerly, we have deterred the Soviets by leaving them in doubt about whether we would go first strike tactical nuclear. This was the only rational and economic strategy but it played into the hands of Europe's left.

NATO has to be reformed, Trump is absolutely right, and his remarks are more likely the typical Trump opening negotiating positions than the product of ignorance as the New York Times likes to opine.

Both NATO and the European Union have to be preserved but we have to understand why. The greatest strategic threat to the United States comes from a potential alliance of Russia with China which draws some or all of the European nations, especially Germany, into that orbit. If that occurs America will be very isolated and very threatened.

To forestall such a calamity, it is necessary to bring Russia within the economic sphere of the West but that must be preconditioned on understanding by Putin that Europe, combined with America, is too tough a military and economic nut to crack. He must have more carrots but he must also know the sticks are there. At all costs, Russia and China must be kept separate. I think that is WHY REX TILLERSON WAS CHOSEN TO BE SECRETARY OF STATE, as the man with the relationships in Russia who can restructure the strategic picture so vital to the world balance of power.

[StoneWall Brigade]

Ping

[elhombrelibre]

I don't get it. We have problems with Europe; they're more liberal than the USA. They're less forthcoming with spending for their defense and ours than they should be. However, our combined strength is massive. In alignment together, each nation can avoid duplication of efforts.

Europe, like the USA, has elections and peaceful transitions of power. Nations in Europe and in the USA swing back and forth as the outcome of the elections happen. For nearly twenty years now and probably for the rest of his life, one man has controlled Russia. He's both taken advantage of Europe's lack of military preparedness while claiming at the same time to be taking these measures because Europe and NATO are a grave threat. He's a huge threat to Belarus, the Baltic nations, and Poland. He continues to wage a vicious but undeclared war on the neighboring Christian nation of Ukraine while his propaganda organs proclaim that nation a NAZI nation. He's taken through force alone a large part of that country and caused over 1.7 million of its people to become displaced.

Putin must not fool us, like previous Communist leaders and he has done so far. FDR thought he could charm Uncle Joe. George W. Bush looked in Putin's eyes and didn't see an ex-KGB Colonel, loyal servant of the evil empire, and thug. Bush saw a man we could do business with. Obama and Hillary thought he could reset with Russia, and they removed every US tank from Europe. Trump thinks Russia is someone he can do business with, too. He admires him for his leadership skills and his alleged love of country. But Putin unwaveringly pursues Putin's interests. His interests are as follows. 1) Stay in power. 2) Avoid prosecution. 3) Exacerbate tensions with the West to rally the nationalist card but short of war. 4) Return Russia to its former status as a Super Power at the expense of the USA and Europe. 5) Pursue domestic policies that lead to a chauvinistic nationalism. 6) Fund radical fringe parties and propaganda without regard to ideology to undermine democratic institutions, democratic values, and trust in government. 7) Use the government-established, state-funded Russian Orthodox Church to provide cover for his attacks on Christians in Russia and in neighboring nations. 8) Support like minded bloody dictators like Assad to enhance Russia's geo-political power base and to provide the appearance of a Christian paladin.

It is very difficult to see what about Putin's agenda would be agreeable to an American president.

[AC Beach Patrol]

[rest of standard neocon BS talking points deleted]... Support like minded bloody dictators like Assad to enhance Russia's geo-political power base and to provide the appearance of a Christian paladin.

Yeah, higher and increasing church attendance in Russian is all just a Putin ruse. The real Christian civilization is in the empty churches of Western Europe and our NATO allies, where more and more comes "the most beautiful sound" to Obama's ears emanates-- the Muslim call to prayer. The antagonism and Russophobia by the neocons is due to Russia not submitting the the neocon designs on the complete subjugation of the enemies of Israel envisioned and laid out in things like Clean Break. It reached a fever pitch in around 2014 when Russia interviewed after the false flag operation ("red line") and staged chemical attack, meant to initiate Western miltary and NATO attacks against the Syrian government and military and allowing a complete jihadist overthrow of the Syrian government. After Russia stepped involvement, necons like Victoria Nuland Kagan instigated the coup in Ukraine and other crap on Russia's doorstep. Because Russian countered to protect its territorial interests, including neocon meddling on its doorstep, neocons have been hyperventilating about Russia's aggression and imperialism.

NATO has been good for fully-paid European vacations for perfumed princes, neocon aggression, and the advance of Wahhabist and Salafist Islam, whether in Libya or Kosovo.

But Russia has been on the neocon sh!t list after Putin ended the era of Russia being fleeced by Western interests in an economy set up Larry Summers and Stanley Fischer who redirected wealth to a few oligarchs simpatico with globalist interest.

[AC Beach Patrol]

Sorry for the all the typos, grammar, and autocorrect I didn’t catch.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Both NATO and the European Union have to be preserved but we have to understand why."

I wholeheartedly agree with your whole post except for this one point. I don't understand why the European Union is a sacred cow. People talk about it as if it has been one of the institutions that helped combat the USSR during the cold war like NATO. In point of fact, it came into being after the Soviet Union fell. It has not been around forever and is not and was not ever a pillar institution of Europe.

My own opinion is that I would not like to live under the EU with unelected bureaucrats making laws and regulations that effect my country. However, I personally believe that the U.S. needs to take a stance of neutrality on this. Our position should be that we will trade and work with whomever in Europe. Whatever they decide for their destination we should support. It's in America's interest to do business with Europe no matter what form it may be in.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

Your assessment of Putin is spot on. While I think his “involvement” in our elections is way overblown, I do not for one minute believe he is our allay. You did not even mention his takeover of Crimea and part of Georgia. We can do business with Putin, but he is not to be trusted. We must strengthen NATO and our own military to show him we are not playing around. Negotiate with him from a position of strength.

[elhombrelibre]

Typos are okay. I’m sure it’s tough to type in English when your first language is Russian. How many comments a day are you paid to make?

[elhombrelibre]

Yes, the hacking didn't elect Trump, nor should it be ignored or overlooked.

Anyone wanting to know how to deal with Putin needs to do one thing. Remember how Reagan dealt with them. Sure the Putinista apologists won't like it, but they love Putin the way that the Left loved the Soviets. Follow Reagan. Strengthen the USA. Talk but don't do anything against US interests and freedom. Verify any agreement.

[Brooklyn Attitude]

The NYT and the rest of the commie media used to LOVE Russia and the USSR before that. They ignored Ob@sTARD’s message to “Vlad” about having more flexibility (to screw over the US) after being elected. They applauded the ill concieved and incompetently executed “Reset button”. Now that they need an excuse for being beaten by Trump, Russia is the enemy and Trump is in their pocket.

[nathanbedford]

Full disclosure: I am in ex-pat living in European Union whose existence here would be adversely affected if the union were to dissolve.

I think the coherence of Western and middle Europe must be preserved as a counterpoint to Russia and as a United entity against aggressive Islam.

If the union breaks up then Vladimir Putin will be in a position to pick off nationstates much like China has evidently just picked off the Philippines. Please do not mistake me, the European Union is in desperate need of political reform but so long as it speaks, at least ostensibly, in one voice concerning foreign affairs the influence of an aggressive Russia can more easily be fended off.

As to the reform of the European Union, the socialist mentality here makes it difficult to expect either political or economic reform which I define mostly to mean a restructuring of the architecture of the European Union. The problem is, it is run by leftists who love bureaucracies, who themselves are bureaucrats, who rule Europe according to the bureaucratic fashion. This will be a tough nut to crack.

I agree with your position that American should be neutral concerning the makeup of the European Union and trade opportunistically which is, after all, the policy of the founders and framers. We should not, however, be neutral respecting Islam or Russia. We should co-opt Russia if possible.

[AC Beach Patrol]

Typos are okay. I’m sure it’s tough to type in English when your first language is Russian. How many comments a day are you paid to make?

LOL, I don't make as much as I did hacking Podesta's emails and Rust Belt voting machines. Or hacking the fire alarms at the houses of goaltenders playing against Ovechkin.

On a serious note, as a descendant of peoples originally from the British Isles (English-Irish), I look much more like and have the same religious inclination as the average person you'd see on the streets of Moscow than the average person you'd see on the streets of London. Some people might call such noticing racist and xenophobic. I call it basic genetic-ethnic identity, which is unacceptable to all European peoples, save for the puppet masters who have been working so hard to eliminate Christianity and European ethno-identity through multiculturalism, globalism, no borders-ism and mass migration and Islamization.

[elhombrelibre]

I understand. Your handlers were helpful with your reply. Here is the thing about Americans. We're not a nation based on race, genetics, or looks. We're a people committed to our constitution. To help you out, we do fight with liberals, who (like yourself) play identity politics. But in our country to try to get the liberals to accept that it is the constitution that is what binds us together. And it's a hell of a struggle. But that's it. For real Americans, we don't care that you look like a Viking, a Spaniard, a Japanese Ronin, a Chinese coolie, a Cajun trapper, a black African movie star, or whatever.

So are you an alt-right Russian or just a paid troll?