OROVILLE, Calif. (KCRA) — A funnel cloud was spotted over Oroville Wednesday afternoon. The funnel cloud was part of a storm system that was moving through region around 4 p.m.
http://www.kcra.com/article/funnel-cloud-spotted-over-oroville/8966994
Posted on 02/12/2017 4:26:47 PM PST by janetjanet998
Edited on 02/12/2017 9:33:58 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
The Oroville Dam is the highest in the nation.
OROVILLE, Calif. (KCRA) — A funnel cloud was spotted over Oroville Wednesday afternoon. The funnel cloud was part of a storm system that was moving through region around 4 p.m.
http://www.kcra.com/article/funnel-cloud-spotted-over-oroville/8966994
“... Think there might be some nuggets there? ...”
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And it just now dawned on me that “Oroville” means “Gold Town”...
I’m a little slow on the uptake, sometimes...
The free market almost always and government almost never delivers
- lowest cost,
- best quality,
- minimum time.
Caltrans has been rebuilding Interstate 80 over the Sierras for more that a decade now. The technique they are using is a rebar cage at either end of a slab section with dowel pins between. Seem to be pretty durable. That said I haven’t seen any sign of steel in the main spillway at Oroville Dam. Good news is that no steel will make the demolition of the spillway faster when they start.
Well, as the old saying goes, “Good enough for government work.” The way to see government is you take free enterprise, and you take away reason and accountability. In that sense, government is like a baby - little reason and no accountability whatsoever. So who in their right mind would put so many lives in the hands of a baby? The extent of accountability here is Moonbeam saying, “Stuff happens”. My answer: “Yeah, especially when government is involved.”
A much as possible this stuff should be in the hands of free enterprise. I’m certain it should not be in the hands of the feds. If it does need to be a state project, the smaller and less corruption and no bribery in the local government means a greater the chance that the open competition of the free market will be involved to deliver a cost-effective, quality product.
Slabs that are exposed to weather including freezing temperatures are going to suffer the freeze/thaw cycle damage that concrete has always had to suffer with for its longevity.
There are things that make it more durable to these forces but not immune.
Maintenance and occasional replacement are what is required. Many spillways aren’t constructed with a run-out feature at all but instead project the water onto rock below.
To be fair, I have been involved in some very good government construction. I have seen private construction built much to cheaply for the quick buck and seen the facility suffer from it.
One need only to think of shopping center parking lots to understand the difference between cheap and durable. Some are falling apart within a year and some last for decades.
Sounds like the Loony Tune inmates are running the asylum.
Similar to draining the water from route 37 and highway 101 and blocking traffic several times each winter. Instead of fixing and really repairing the problem.
I don’t know the circumstances surrounding those parking lots, and nothing is perfect, but generally things are done much better and the results much more satisfying in the voluntary cooperation and competition of buyers and sellers in the market economy free of government interference. The free market isn’t perfect but it’s way ahead of whatever’s in second place.
If a local project must be run by a local government, the best results will come if the government officials are not politicians but businessmen (the “reasonable” element) and the government is small enough to be answerable to the public (the “accountability” element).
The “Good-Enough-for-Government-Work” Syndrome.
In almost 50 years I have built in all of those market segments, Government does build a little on its own in public works but for the most part they have their work built by private companies just like Walmart does.
They have their own set of rules and environment just like any very large customer does but they are better than they used to be three decades ago.
Owner’s that build for themselves and long term ownership generally design and then build with that term of ownership in mind — higher quality.
There are many reasons why the free market products are generally superior in cost, quality, and turnaround time than what government produces.
One reason is you’re much more careful what you do with your assets and your money than what you do with someone else’s assets and money. A free enterprise is careful how is spends its own money and uses its own assets. No one in government owns any of the assets government uses and government doesn’t earn it’s money, it forces money from other people. So there’s little incentive in government to maximize quality, minimize coat, and turnaround time. That is why haphazard quality, high cost, and long turnaround time is a generally accurate description of how government works when it ventures beyond what government should really be doing which is mainly protecting the freedom of its citizens.
The Post Office is an obvious example. Nobody owns the post office building and that is why they’re generally run down and dilapidated. The DMV doesn’t care how long you wait and doesn’t care if you’re satisfied with their service once you do get waited on. That’s government. No accountability.
If Walmart subcontracts schlock then at some point Walmart will pay the price and will be out-competed by someone else who pays better attention. In the free market if you fail, you lose and if you don’t fix it, you’re out. In government if you fail, you get more money and a bigger bureaucracy. No reason or accountability.
Why aren’t people calling for Moonbeams head. Sounds like Barrys stimulus money was not spent for infrastructure repairs.
I understand you philosophical point. I am trying to share some actual empirical experience.
Government knows it does not take care of things, either with out-sourced maintenance or their own crews. They therefore often build things a little more durable.
WalMart builds shopping center space for their own use. They build it very solidly built and sound. Across the street, the private shopping center developer, who is often not going to build and hold, often builds crap.
All of this has little to do with the contractor who builds what is on the plans and in the contract. The designer sets the standard for much of this and he designs what he is paid to design with a service life and materials as dictated by his user.
Over the last 15 years I have watched as the military went through more design-build trying to mimic the private sector with one goal in mind — drive the cost down 30%. Quality during that process has been all over the ball park. Delivery times have been up and down as well. Durability has not improved but lack of standardization has actually made maintenance harder to maintain for military bases.
Quality on construction in general, is much higher than it was 30 years ago given the same item to item comparison and this is regardless of the buyer. I base this opinion on hundreds of millions in projects over almost 50 years.
No, Barry’s stimulus money was spent to give us special Barry cellphones. Part of Barry’s pledge to “fundamentally change America”into a socialist dictatorship.
I’m still trying to figure out how those trucks got on the spillway.
Is there a “gate” in the sidewall somewhere or access from up at the top?
I think if you did, you'd know this isn't philosophy, but actual, "empirical" reality such as examples of the Post Office, the DMV, and possibly certain critical elements of the Orville dam.
Government knows it does not take care of things, either with out-sourced maintenance or their own crews. They therefore often build things a little more durable.
More durable than what? Than what a private firm would do? What is government's incentive to build things that are more durable? One thing for sure, since no one in government actually owns any government assets, no one has any incentive to maintain these projects which is why the history of the maintenance of government projects is miserable at best. "The Projects" is ghetto-code for dilapidation of things built for government programs.
WalMart builds shopping center space for their own use. They build it very solidly built and sound. Across the street, the private shopping center developer, who is often not going to build and hold, often builds crap.
As I said, the free market isn't perfect, but the open competition in the free market will weed out schlock. America has the highest quality country in the world not because of government but because of the open competition and voluntary cooperation of buyers and sellers in the marketplace free from government interference. The standard of living and safety of government-heavy countries are far below that of America.
All of this has little to do with the contractor who builds what is on the plans and in the contract. The designer sets the standard for much of this and he designs what he is paid to design with a service life and materials as dictated by his user.
That is why I say, to the degree the free market is running the show, the better the result. Also, to the degree the local government is small, businesslike, transparent, free of bribes, and accountable, the better the result.
Over the last 15 years I have watched as the military went through more design-build trying to mimic the private sector with one goal in mind — drive the cost down 30%. Quality during that process has been all over the ball park. Delivery times have been up and down as well. Durability has not improved but lack of standardization has actually made maintenance harder to maintain for military bases.
Part of the reason for the mixed results is confusion of purpose and blurred goals in the last 28 years from the Commander in Chief on down. The one thing government can do very well is build a maintain the military. Government is an entity of force which is it's raison d'etre. Thus, military projects and maintenance fits government like a glove. So again, especially in military matters, the more patriotic, businesslike, and bribery-free the approach to goal-setting, researching, bidding, and deal-making with outside contractors, the better the result.
Quality on construction in general, is much higher than it was 30 years ago given the same item to item comparison and this is regardless of the buyer. I base this opinion on hundreds of millions in projects over almost 50 years.
I assume you mean government construction projects. Your general statement is hard to validate or nail down, but there is every reason to believe that to the degree the free market was involved, to that degree cost, turnaround time, and quality for those projects were the best. To the degree it was opaque, unaccountable big government running the show, the price for that quality was probably unconscionable.
Back in the day I had to do a CBR on the sub-base of an already paved school parking lot. It was 25 degrees in a howling wind with snow.
Had to core through the asphalt and mount the measurement gizmo against the bottom of a fully loaded dump truck. Took all day and ran into freezing water problems with the coring machine.
That was the one job that broke me of ever wanting to work outside again in that kind of weather.
The icing though was getting an almost free day having to drive 2 hours to another of our offices that had an engineer who could do the calculations.
Ha! You get the best question award for the day!
I scratched my head for a second then I remembered an item in my collection of images (file storage on this is getting large).
The Construction Blueprints of the Main Spillway Head Sluice Gate show 8 gates noted each as 33 feet wide and over 17 feet high.
Then there was a photograph I remembered of a low water state of the reservoir that shows roads & equipment driving on the exposed apron area. (see pic below).
I hadn't gave much thought to seeing the single road going up the inlet apron to the Main Spillway Sluice Gate. But it seemed odd to me then... Until your question...
"They drive onto the main spillway chute through an open sluice gate".
That was a terrific question.
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