Posted on 09/04/2001 10:23:34 AM PDT by tbeatty
Edited on 09/03/2002 4:49:18 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Correct me if I'm wrong Cap'n, but I think it is sufficient to simply give notice of his identity, authority and purpose to any occupant of the premises specified in the warrant, unless exigent circumstances require his immediate forcible entry.
Being a sealed warrant, Beck would not be allowed to read it until the seal expires or he is brought up on criminal charges.
So telling Beck that they were the police, they had a federal search warrant signed by the magistrate to search the house, is sufficient. After Beck refused entry, the police are allowed to use such force as necessary to gain entry.
Being a sealed warrant, Beck would not be allowed to read it until the seal expires or he is brought up on criminal charges.
So telling Beck that they were the police, they had a federal search warrant signed by the magistrate to search the house, is sufficient. After Beck refused entry, the police are allowed to use such force as necessary to gain entry.
When did that policy take effect? Seems pretty scary to me. Of course, my suspicion is that some rogue "police" agency just decided to start doing things that way and nobody has been able to stop them since they make their own rules.
I agree. The BAFT has a real bad name and they earned it. Off the record most local LEOs will agree. They are a bunch of a** holes.
What color is the sky in your world? You are in the extreme minority to be so beligerent toward BATF. I would say 90% of decent, normal, society isn't nearly as paranoid as you about the BATF.
I am NOT defending the BATF. But as a defender of RKBA, it is important to know that your view is in the absolute minority. Do you recall when the NRA called the BATF jack-booted thugs? Do you know how much credibility they lost with the Public and how much credibility they lost with Congress? It was a huge blow to RKBA. Therefore, I am very careful about who I select as RKBA champions and who I select as RKBA enemies.
It does no good to select a Federal Law Enforcement agency as the enemy. Politically, it is suicide. You will always lose because the face of a Federal Law Enforcement agency is someone willing to DIE to save the innocent public. It's like attacking motherhood and apple pie. The press will crucify your position.
It is also political suicide to select a cop killer as your idol or water bearer. He is neither. And when I hear people using Beck to argue that our Gun Control laws are out of control because what he did shouldn't be illegal, it is disheartening because it turns RKBA into a fringe cause. Rank and File citizens and Congressman will move away from RKBA becuase they don't want to be associated with people like Beck.
If you want to defeat the BATF, attack it as a wasteful organization. Ask your congressman to merge it with the FBI, which has a much larger mission than firearms. But please don't attack them as being less than murderers. You do no service to our rights when you do that.
I'm not saying that the defendant has the right to refuse warrant service merely because he is not shown all of the supporting documentation which led to the warrant, some of which may be under seal. But even when the supporting documentation is under seal doesn't the judge give the cops a certified copy of the warrant itself which they are in turn to give to the defendant? If the cops are not required to actually show a warrant before forcing their way into a defendant's house, what is to stop them from doing so and subsequently claiming the search was "consensual"?
What stops them from doing it now? If they conduct an unlawful search, and claim it was consensual it will be a he said/she said scenario. If they are willing to break the law, especially as part of a conspiracy, it is very difficult to detect. Just look at the LAPD problem. That's why corrupt public officials need to be sent to jail for long periods of time.
To be honest, I don't know what they need to show other than to inform the people they have a warrant. Cap'n should know. I know that a sealed warrant is not presented for them to read since the warrant necessarily includes an affadivit that they don't want revealed. Maybe there's a notice that an affadivit is on file with the clerk?
My test for police behavior is: Would I be justified in taking the action that they took given their situation. With Beck I'd have to say yes.
I'll give you another example though, where I realized that even my views are in the minority (and I am on the same side of the minority as you are today).
A couple of years ago, the Mesa police were investigating a report of a stolen truck (It may have been another crime, not relevant). They followed the truck to the convenience store. The suspect and his girlfriend were in the truck. They surrounded the truck with five officers on foot. The suspect tried to drive through them. One of the officers was on the local tactical squad and had his MP5 out. When the suspect tried to drive through them, all 5 policeman opened up, including the MP5. Both the suspect and girlfriend were killed.
In my opinion, the girlfriend was not a threat. If I had done that as a citizen, even though justified in shooting the driver, I would not be justified in shooting the passenger.
The county prosecutor felt as I did and charged the policeman with manslaughter. They were acquitted. I believe they were fired from the department after the shooting review (not sure about that). I may have gotton some facts wrong but for the most part it's true.
But the point is that even here, where by defending the Sheriff against what I call slander, I am called a shill, I am in the minority. 12 of my peers thought it was justified to shoot the passenger.
That's where we're in the minority. We may look like everyone else and go to all the same places and what not, but we're not the same as them.
Most people don't understand what rights are and aren't interested in it. While it is noble to try and change it, we must understand that Democrats and libs in general will try to take advantage of both the ignorance and fear that the masses have. Beck is the Poster Child for Gun Control. It make no sense for us to take his picture out and say "This is why Gun Control is Bad." It won't fly. RKBA will be harmed even more than it is.
As well you should not. They have a long history of manipulating cooperating agencies. They like stirring up trouble with nothing but political motives, and then letting others clean everything up. They don't share vital information. They love cooperating agencies. They use them to deflect criticism and to take point.
You should be hopping mad at the ATF. You need to ask yourself a few questions. Who started it all? Who ended up standing around the corner picking their noses? And who was getting shot?
Beck.
Nice dodge, but you didn't answer my questions. I can see that I need to simplify things for you. Lets assume that Beck was in violation of the law and get that out of the way. By who started it, I mean who opened the case, and who initiated the search. Who was the agency behind the search. Now try and answer those questions once again. (Hint: either local law enforcement or BATF)
Are you afraid to admit that the ATF may have known Beck's response? It is obvious that they initiated the case. They brought many agents to a search that should have been handled by a deputy and a parole officer. It sure looks to me like they started something and left the locals hanging out to dry. Try not to answer like Gary Condit this time.
Beck's neighbors. Now post your sources of the ATFs LONG HISTORY of "manipulating cooperating agencies".
Neighbors are suspicious about Beck and his bragging about weapons and being a U.S. Marshall. They don't know he's a felon, just that their afraid he might be a chold molester or something. They take down his license number and give to the local police with their concerns.
Local police run the license plate and find that he's a felon with previous firearms convictions. They forward to the BATF for followup because they are the agency that handled it previously.
The BATF had executed a search warrant last year with Beck without incident (i.e. peaceful with no arrest). They believe this one will be peaceful as well. The BATF, with the local Sheriff (Sheriff is head law enforcement in the county so generally tags along for support) and U.S. Marshall arrive at 8 a.m. to serve warrant. It isn't a tactical raid, it's desk jockeys serving a routine search warrant (not arrest warrant) on a non-violent suspect.
Instead of cooperating like last time, Beck retreats from the door and barricades himself in the house. He fires a shot (which lodges in his neighbors bathroom) and then asks the LEO's not to hurt his girlfriend who exits through the garage. The Sheriff's onseen call for backup after the shot is fired. Kuredjian responds to this call. As he arrives, Beck shoots him in the head and pins down his would be rescuers.
Stand off begins, Sheriff takes over negotiations and crime scene (chief LEO).
No, I don't blame the BATF for following up on a complaint by a local citizen. Sorry. They underestimated Becks response but that is understandable given his history of non-violence.
If there is any fault for the BATF it's that they acted too respectfully of Beck. If they did a dynamic entry at 3:00 am, we never would have heard about it and Beck and Kuredjian would be alive today. Beck would be getting ready for a lifetime of "hide the salami" in the state pen.
But the blame for all of this is squarely on Beck. He's scumbag cop killer who shot a hero to death to protect his criminal activity.
Just like George Rivas in Texas.
These late night dynamic entries have resulted in the death of innocent people. They should not be allowed under any circumstances.
Sealed warrants are used in cases of suspected espionage and where agencies don't want to reveal who their informants are (out of risk that their target will know they've been penetrated). Agencies do not serve sealed warrants on suspicion of impersonating a US Marshal or weapons possession.
So apparently the public is being lied to, as posters here suggest. There is no way to reconcile these facts AND allow for the ATF to tell the truth in this case.
Especially when people like you blindly accept the word of agencies such as the ATF, without any regard to past history or facts of the case at hand.
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