Rock Bridge accommodates Muslim students: "It sounds like we set up a mosque in our (public) school"

Columbia, Missouri Daily Tribune ^ | Thursday, October 25, 2001 | CORY de VERA

[rface]

Muslim students at Rock Bridge High School (Columbia, Missouri area)
removed a hand-lettered sign identifying
a room as the "Muslim Student Prayer Room"
after a school employee contacted the Tribune questioning the
constitutionality of setting up what looked like a mosque.

According to the employee, who asked not to be named, inside the room there was also a sign asking visitors to "remove shoes when entering the mosque."

"The sign is not a good idea," Principal Bruce Brotzman said Tuesday. "It sounds like we set up a mosque in our school or" if it were "for Christians, a sanctuary. We are not going to do that. But to make space available to accommodate kids, that is something ... we want to do."

Practicing Muslims pray five times a day during specified windows of time. At least one of those times falls during the school day. Brotzman said that each year, students look for space for the daytime prayer. This year he offered them a small basement room after an elementary school’s gifted-education program moved out. The room has no window and is not identified with a room number.

"The most important thing is to find a place that is clean and quiet," said senior Rehab El-Buri. Last year students used the Performing Arts Center but would periodically find it occupied by a class or locked. She estimated about 30 students use the room from time to time, though on days when they have cars they might drive to the mosque downtown instead.

Rehab said Muslim students weren’t upset to see the signs go down. They were posted by a student whose family immigrated here two months ago and who is suffering from culture shock, she said.

"I know they didn’t open this room just for Muslim students. We may have the greatest need, but this is by no means a mosque," Rehab said. "I think the room should be open to Christians or Buddhists who want to pray."

Steve Benen, spokesman for the Washington-based group Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the question of how far schools must go to accommodate daytime prayer by students has not been settled legally.

"The policy most schools take is one of accommodation, which seems to work for everyone involved," he said. "The caveat is that it must not be disruptive. … Rooms being set aside for exclusively religious use, that would be legally problematic."

Earlier this year, Americans United wrote letters of opposition to a Kentucky high school that allowed an outside person to renovate a classroom into a chapel, complete with pews carved with crosses, a pulpit and a copy of the Lord’s Prayer posted. The school set up the room for students who wanted to come voluntarily.

After communication with Americans United, the Kentucky school converted its chapel into a different school use.

Brotzman said Assistant Principal Kathy Ritter has explained to Muslim students that the room is not exclusively "theirs."

Brotzman said Christian students haven’t asked to use a school room during the day, though requests to use space before and after school aren’t uncommon. A flier posted on school bulletin boards advertised a meeting yesterday of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes in the school commons. The meeting was to include songs and worship.

Rehab said her years at Rock Bridge have been the best of her life in terms of helping her feel comfortable expressing who she is. In middle school, she was "too much of a conformist" to break away to pray during the day. In junior high she gained confidence, but administrators didn’t help students find a room to use.

"When new Muslim families come to Columbia, I always recommend their kids go to Rock Bridge because they have been so overwhelmingly cooperative with us and so understanding," she said.

[Luis Gonzalez]

That's where I believe that you are wrong, no one can stop a child from praying in school.

They can stop a child that stands up and disrupts a class or a function to do so, but if your child bows his or her head in prayer before lunch, or before a test, or at any other time, they will not be told to stop. If they are in fact told to do so, the person making the demand is in error, and can be ignored.

One last thought, I am a Christian, but I happen to believe that the place for religious worship and fellowship is in God's, not man's, House. I don't want school time dedicated to religious activities, people who wish to have their children participating in religious related activities during the school day have the choice of sending the to parochial schools. Public schools are for everyone, and if all religions are to be given the ability to worship during school hours, little time will be left for math, reading, science, etc.

[syriacus]

Here's another good reason to steer clear of Austin.

More bones found Investigators think O'Hair mystery over
Jim Vertuno, The Associated Press
Investigators believe O'Hair, who had a hip replacement operation several years before her disappearance, was killed, dismembered and dumped on the Cooksey Ranch along with her son Jon Garth Murray and the granddaughter she had adopted, Robin Murray O'Hair... Prosecutors contend the victims were dismembered at a public storage shed in Austin, placed in 55-gallon drums and dumped on the ranch property under Waters' directions.

[motexva]

It SEEMS like the Court HAS ALREADY said "Sorry we don't pray in schools in this country. That's against the rules here."

But that's not what the court has said. The ruling is far more complex than that. The court has said that you can't have any type of school or teacher-led prayer or other religious activity during class time. The court in the last decade or so has clarified those rulings by saying that student-led religious organizations can use classrooms before and after school and I believe on the weekends for religious activities, as long as that courtesy is extended to all other student-led groups.

It isn't prayer period that is banned in our public schools, it is school-sponsored or led prayers. A group like Kids for Christ or Kids for Allah can use school rooms for their groups to meet and pray in, as long as they are not used for class and the students have free time.

A student can individually pray, silently or out loud before a test without sanction - though spoken prayer might be termed a disruption by the teacher running the class.

Teachers can discuss religion and religious issues, if there is an educational tie-in to the subject matter, and as long as the teacher is not preaching or seeking converts.

Some of my interpretation may be wrong, I am not a lawyer, just took a lot of Communications Law courses. I would urge you to poke around the internet, there's tons of sites that deal with these issues. I think the broad outlines of what I've said here are true.

And again, I'm don't necessarily support any of this. I am stating the courts position and their interpretation of the constitution.

I also suspect, that given the amount of Moslims on the east coast for the last 20 years, that the constitutionality of this issue was probably settled and made part of case law quite some time ago. I am sure the Rockbridge school district probably has a lawyer on retainer, who checked into the legality of this.

Also, while not going into excessive detail, there are guidelines the court uses to determine if someone has a valid religious accomodation issue. One of those guidelines is the number of people who adhere to the faith. Christianity and Islam are going to be accorded wide respect by the courts, because billions worship these faiths and creeds.

Joe Druggie, who tries to concoct a religious freedom defense to justify their cocaine use, is going to get laughed out of the court.

This is the reality of this situation syriacus. You say you do not respect the courts and its decision, and I say to that: neither do I on many different issues. But if you want this situation to change, you need to understand the legal reality of the situation. You already understand the philosophical and religious implications, but courts don't take those into consideration, they look at the constitution and their case law. In America, you argue in the courts or you take to the streets, and I don't support you doing that. Like or leave it, you work in the courts in America because we have rule of law and due process.

I still say my idea - shut down all the Schoolag Archipelagos - is best, because then we don't have to waste our breaths with this issue anymore. You want to smash the power of the secular government, deny them the power to educate our children according to their Godless lefto goals. That's how I intend to deal with this for my children, they will not attend public schools. If most people took responsibility for their own children's education, the public schools would shut down on their own.

[motexva]

It was a huge murder case in Austin-San Antonio area for years? I didn't follow the link because I lived there when the case broke. Did you? The O'Hairs had embezzled their Atheist Organization out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (though no one likes to talk about that) with the help of some confederates, who turned on the O'Hairs and apparently shot or beat them to death out in the desert. The killers took all the cash and I believe a bunch of gold coins and put it in a storage center, where that night some teenagers randomly broke in and stole all the loot, blowing most of it at strip bars and booze. The killers turned on each other, at least one was killed, cut in pieces and thrown in the river. Something like 5 years later they finally busted them for it.

The O'Hairs didn't believe in God . . . ironic that their deaths and the fate of their cronies stand as a testament to His Justice.

[syriacus]

That's where I believe that you are wrong, no one can stop a child from praying in school.

You might be right about this belief of yours. It sure seems like it will take some time to see how such a thing would play out. Too bad that, meanwhile, the Christian students don't have a school principal giving them a dedicated prayer room to use whenever they feel moved by the Spirit to pray. That's what we're talking about here. A school room, in effect, dedicated to prayer, for a least part of the day.

Would a Buddhist child be allowed to pray out loud in that room at the same time as the Muslim children? Would an atheist be allowed to go in there at that time and "spontaneously" begin a discussion of why she doesn't believe God exists? Probably not. Because the Muslims are having their special time and room protected for them. This is MORE than merely allowing spontaneous prayer (which type of prayer I think you are saying is 'good enough' for the non-Muslims.)

BTW, I imagine a Christian child could be stopped from praying in a school that was concerned about the Christian's "lack of sensitivity" to non-Christian students.

As one little example of real-life "Sensitivity" from MY school district...Do you remember Bush's declaration of a day of "prayer and remembrance?" The morning announcements in our school on that day deleted the word "PRAYER" from Bush's specific title for the day. In other words, the administrator refused to even directly quote Bush's official title for the day since the official title for the day included the mere word Prayer!! The administrator called the day a Presidentially declared "day of remembrance and mourning" or something like that (I wrote the words down somewhere, but don't have them at hand). The administrator was SO sensitive that he not only didn't pray (understandable in a public school) but he didn't EVEN use the word "prayer."

[syriacus]

You say you do not respect the courts and its decision

Where did I say this?

[syriacus]

The court in the last decade or so has clarified those rulings by saying that student-led religious organizations can use classrooms before and after school and I believe on the weekends for religious activities, as long as that courtesy is extended to all other student-led groups.

Yes, but this is not related to the issue at hand, since we are talking about public schools supporting (protecting/providing occasion for?) prayer during school hours.

(BTW in the real world, some school administrators have attempted to effectively deny school space, to after-school groups that they disapprove of, by saying the rooms can only be used at after-school times that are difficult for the children to take advantage of using them. But I guess you knew that already)

[syriacus]

though spoken prayer might be termed a disruption by the teacher running the class.

So, shouldn't the Christian and Jewish and Hindu kids be given a prayer room, too? They even might want to sing as part of their worship of God.

[syriacus]

I also suspect, that given the amount of Moslims on the east coast for the last 20 years, that the constitutionality of this issue was probably settled and made part of case law quite some time ago.

This would be worth looking into. Wish I had your legal background.

[Psalm 73]

"...if you could demonstrate that praying at certain times of day is part of that religion. I didn't think it was."

OK smarty pants, read Thessalonians 5:17. We are instructed to "Pray unceasingly".

[syriacus]

you work in the courts in America because we have rule of law and due process.

Sounds good to me. The Muslims just might have worked that due process and made it possible for Christians to pray in special rooms in school, too.

After all those years of hard work by some Christians, to be allowed to hold group prayer in schools, the Muslims might have opened the door to a special prayer room for Christians, too. Wouldn't Madalyn Murray O'Hair be spinning in her grave?

Another thought..I've heard that Irish Catholic immigrants were very happy to have Church and State separation in America. They were accustomed to years of religious persecution in their own country of birth. When they came to the US, the Irish-Catholics were happy to start their OWN parochial schools and to have religious beliefs kept out of public schools. They were also happy to realize that in America they would not have the same religious persecution if they attended the 'government run' schools that they had sometimes experienced in Ireland.

Do you think that people who have been persecuted for their religion are more likely to want the educational arm of the government to be kept out of religion? On the other hand would people who come from countries that officially supported their own religions be more likely to want official sanction/support of their religious practices in the US also?

[syriacus]

We are instructed to "Pray unceasingly".

And since Christ also said it is a good idea to pray in private (in a closet?), the schools need to be redesigned with separate prayer-closets for each child.(The Muslims have prayer alcoves in their Mosques, I think, so they might like this architectural detail too.)

[motexva]

We are instructed to "Pray unceasingly".

Out loud? And led by a state employee?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Too bad that, meanwhile, the Christian students don't have a school principal giving them a dedicated prayer room to use whenever they feel moved by the Spirit to pray."

Christianity, unlike Islam, does not have a rigid prayer schedule as part of their core of beliefs and rituals, to allow children to retire to a room whenever they are "moved by the Spirit" to pray is ludicrous, potentially disruptive, and would be abused instantly. If the particular sect of Christianity required students to pray daily, at a certain time, I am sure arrangements could be made, if not, blame the principal, and challenge him or her.

"Would a Buddhist child be allowed to pray out loud in that room at the same time as the Muslim children?"

They would have their own scheduled time, and out of respect for others wishing to worship, that child should not even attempt to be so disruptive.

"Would an atheist be allowed to go in there at that time and "spontaneously" begin a discussion of why she doesn't believe God exists?"

He or she should be able to, as long as it isn't disrupting anyone who was already in that room, the atheists right to not believe does not trump the right of the Christian children to worship.

"Because the Muslims are having their special time and room protected for them."

Not what the article says at all, the principal allowed them the use of the room, and made it available to any student, of any religion, who wished to use it, in an orderly manner, for quiet prayer and contemplation. He states that right in the article.

"This is MORE than merely allowing spontaneous prayer (which type of prayer I think you are saying is 'good enough' for the non-Muslims.)"

This is far from "spontaneous" prayer, Muslims pray at specific times, several times a day.

"BTW, I imagine a Christian child could be stopped from praying in a school that was concerned about the Christian's "lack of sensitivity" to non-Christian students."

As I've said several times, that would be a poor decision by a mid-level school official, challenge them. Christ said that we would suffer for him, this is far from suffering.

"As one little example of real-life "Sensitivity" from MY school district...Do you remember Bush's declaration of a day of "prayer and remembrance?" The morning announcements in our school on that day deleted the word "PRAYER" from Bush's specific title for the day. In other words, the administrator refused to even directly quote Bush's official title for the day since the official title for the day included the mere word Prayer!! The administrator called the day a Presidentially declared "day of remembrance and mourning" or something like that (I wrote the words down somewhere, but don't have them at hand). The administrator was SO sensitive that he not only didn't pray (understandable in a public school) but he didn't EVEN use the word "prayer."

Get the idea? The problem isn't the "school district", it is the Administrator.

Challenge him.

One more obvious problem is that the childen in question are Muslims.

[Psalm 73]

The verse doesn't go into details, it only says: "Pray unceasingly".
I suppose it could be out load, or led by anyone, or no one.
What is your point?

[Luis Gonzalez]

"We are instructed to "Pray unceasingly".

Well, do you?

[stainlessbanner]

The Taliban approves....

[LaBradford22]

See, in the liberal world, what the founding fathers really meant by "Separation of Church and State" is "Separation of Christianity/Judaism and State." The founding fathers intended to add a sentence, stating that "any religion practiced by ACLU-protected minority groups need not be kept separate from the state. In fact, said religion should be pushed on the oppressive white male majority under the guise of diversity and tolerance."

[lavaroise]

The hypocrisy, this is typical public school anti-US horsesh!t

[RnMomof7]

The USA is sowing to the wind ,and we will be reaping the whirlwind. I am in shock to see the USA going down the tubes with so many ignorant people at the helm. Islam is not just another religion, and it is here to destroy us. It really makes me sick, for I have no other country to go to. My ancestors have fought and died for this nation to be free for generations. Islam stands for oppression and hatred of all who are not Muslims.

But it is not "Christian "to say that..or so I have been told