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To: pjhoward
Good question ... "Why can't you?"

Very easy, "Those that make a mess get to clean it up - very publicly.

Pearl Harbor has, as you know, "smelled to high ..." for years. Suppressio veri, suggestio falsi - Suppression of the truth is a suggestion of the false.

Just far too many "loose-ends" for me.

Seems you do not like British sources - Barkin and Fishel. N.B., I gave two pointers, one for each of the two viewpoints. On the "Winds Execute" ... Layton's shows the index with JD #7001 noted as missing. What do the British say ... Ooops, is it in those BJ's Costello lists? [At the 1995 Thurmond/Spence Hearing on "clearing" Kimmel/Short - i.e., left to "twist" in the breeze by the US Navy for fifty + years, Costello was a witness. At the end of his time he asked the Congressmen to help get the UK to release those BJ's. Nothing yet ... must be a reason. On the SS Lurline radio log ... gone missing. Admiral King "orders" Navy personnel not to testify. ... Very funny.

Another "old" reference ... in Admiral Kimmel's Story, Chapter VI "Suppression of Evidence" Section 2 "The White House File" ... you ever see this file. [Hint: No one has, it is like Marshall on the the evening of Dec 6th - a real phanton.] Does it smell in here.

On TESTM ... before Stinnett reproduction ... ever see that message "type" in public before? On GUPID ... please post those Stinnett cites ... all "locked-up" - STILL!!!

This JN-25(a --- z) soup is a same-old, same-old ... its the old MAGIC dodge of yester-year - a great "four corners" stall, stall, ... All hinges on he said/her said ... I'll see your SRH-051 and raise you a SRH-149. At least Villa is honest in saying that it is likely that some documents will never appear in the Archives [It did piss the British off that MAGIC was revealed in the mid-40's testimony - recall ULTRA opened up in 1975. Oh, yes, as you know Churchill denied having access MAGIC ... See Costello.]

So let's agree that the PA-K2 ... light signals, the bomb plots were enough to show Pearl Harbor was the target and that Dec. 7th was the day ... in plenty of time to warn Kimmel/Short. So ...

Why were Kimmel/Short not told of the "light signals" ..?

And, as always ... why is so much "stuff" still classifed??? But then I suspect you know why?

On FDR ... not a fine fellow at at ... along many dimensions. But then, Clinton displayed similar behaviors and the "four estate" obliged [as they did with FDR.]

Finally, the last sentence in Morgenstern Chapter "Who's Guilty" sums it up ...

94 posted on 11/07/2001 11:27:15 AM PST by jamaksin
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To: jamaksin
Why can't you? At least you now admit to damning honorable navy cryptologists like Joe Rochefort, Captain Whitlock, Forrest Biard and a hundred or so more of my contemporaries as liers and conspirators that unnecessarily caused the death of their shipmates! It is strange that conspirator theorist always wait until most of the actors are dead before raising their slanderous allegations.

The loose ends are your conspiratorial allegations. Nothing proven just alleged.

What little information I can find on Barkin is that he claims there were JN-25B decrypts which have proven false from OP-20-GYP-1 documents and the testimony of those involved. The Japanese did not put their Pearl Harbor operational orders in radio messages, so how could JN-25B decrypts with only one group out of 100 being read on average determine that such an attack was iminent? Nothing new here.

Fishel is harder to find but from what I read he and Tordello refuted Barkin. See http://muskingum.edu/intellsite/wwiipearl_folder/wwiipearla-c.html

Again, Winds Execute is a dead horse. The Japanese themselves substantiate they never sent such a message and there was no need to do so as the international communications links were still open.

The Kimmell/Short arena is somewhat different. Even Kimmell didn't allege an FDR conspiracy--just that Washington had information that wasn't passed to him. The latest Congressional review found no reason to raise their ranks and put the major blame on Kimmel/Short. I agree that much better and more war warnings could have and should have been sent but for the negligence of Marshall and Turner, but they were bumblers trying to be their own intelligence officers not conspirators.

Again, if the British didn't have any JN-25B decrypts what could be in those BJ's? As to Japan, the British only had Japanese diplomatic decrypts. So only Japanese diplomatic decrypts not JN-25B in Churchill's BJ's.

So some old Coast Guard records are missing. The San Bruno custodian refutes much of Stinnett's allegations. The U.S. Navy had many intercepts of Japanese commercial ships transmitting in the same commercial bands that the Lurline and Grogan used. FYI, Japanese naval ships did not transmit in those commercial shipping bands. The Japanese confirmed that no message was ever sent by the Kido Butai as is seen by Station H intercepts and logs. Scratch Grogan and his Lurline "logs.

I am still waiting for documentation that King muzzled Navy cryptologists. I personally saw an OP-20-G message saying that anyone called before a Congressional hearing was to fully answer any question posed regardless of classification. Am I lying too?

Apparently, the so-called "White House" file is another "missing" document. What specifically is in it? Since we had no JN-25B decrypts there weren't any of those in it.

TESTM was a simple prewar HFDF codebook. HFDF codes were commonly used by appropriate navy cryptologists like myself. It was not a new system to me. The problem is that Stinnett mislead his readers into believing that it showed Kido Butai messages being sent and HFDF bearings on such messages when the second section only listed call sign recoveries from headings in messages sent on the Tokyo broadcast, not from ship transmissions. Shame on him.

GUPID was the third lowest level of the crypto systems used for naval COMINT after COPEK and one other. It was mostly used for confidential information not Top Secret like COPEK or Secret information. No hot stuff there.

Villa is Stinnett rit small. He has no proof either just fantacizes as to what might have been. He keeps finding new "possibilities" after his old ones have been shot down. Poor Wilford, I would hate to be Villa's grad student. We all felt very sorry for Wilford and his terrible predicament.

PA-K2 "bomb plot" messages are clear when you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. You should consider that there were relatively few people in Washington decrypting and translating those Japanese diplomatic messages from all over the world. The Army couldn't handle it all so they asked the Navy to help out on odd days of the month. There were no analysts per se reviewing all these decrypts and translations and very little coordination between the Army and Navy--each mainly having only half of the picture unless something big caught someone's attention. I suppose there was a similar conspiracy when the North Korean's invaded South Korea in a surprise move not detected by intelligence with a huge organization and all the WWII experience. I think you should give some credit to our enemy's ability to maintain secrecy and make such surprise attacks.

95 posted on 11/07/2001 6:43:33 PM PST by pjhoward
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