Towards a Lasting Middle East Peace

12/11/2001 | By: Rabbi Yisroel D. Weiss of Neturei Karta International

[monkeyshine]

Really? Why? It's only fair and reasonable. In fact Palazzi's thoughts are nearly the exact same thing in principle (if not in historical truth) as this group, except only to a opposite end goal.

[Nix 2]

You have been awesome on this thread.

Koach Shur

[Stultis]

And what about this belief is untrue?

How about his intollerant fundamentalism, claiming that all Jews must conform to his narrow beliefs? Unless they abandon Israel completely and spend the next millenium or three muttering over their Holy Books and waiting for the Deus Ex Machina, they are being untrue to their faith. True that this is much better than the extreme forms of Islamic fundamentalism which employ an equally unworldly fanatacism to justify outright murder, but that doesn't mean it isn't utopian bullpuckey.

Why do you even ask this, Demidog? Do you believe Torah is divinely ispired? Do you believe this Rabbi's particular interpretion is correct? If the answers to either of these questions is "no," perhaps you should explain how you are not a posturing hypocrite?

[Buckeroo]

Your mind is made up. There never was a Palestine, was there? It is just a figment of our imaginations. Thank you for erasing a proud people from the chalkboard of history. I have trully learned from you.

[KC_for_Freedom]

Yes, it is the premise of the speach by a part of the Jewish people. My point was that this speach was also made at the time of the partition and creation of the state of Israel and Jews argued on both sides. Those who put their faith in the return of the Messiah believed that the Jewish state would be reborn by His efforts. Others believed that the scriptures had ample room for interpretation on this point, and how do we know that this is not the way the Jewish state should be reborn? I subscribe to the belief that enough searching in the Talmud and the Torah and you can defend most points of view. To identify the stronger side requires a clear moral understanding of the issues at the present time as well.

That the state should be reborn at the cost of many deaths ignors that there were many deaths that could have been prevented had their been a Jewish state prior to WW II. At any rate, a topic that purports to point towards a middle east peace seems to be high on blame and low on direction.

[Nix 2]

Thank you for learning, but you are still missing the point. You can't erase from history something that never was. However you CAN add things that never were.

[Buckeroo]

Of course. And your astute lecture clearly indicates that you have little trouble about increasing the tensions within the Middle-East as you ignore the real issues. You have taught me well ...... that you are nothing but a liar.

[Demidog]

I would agree that what many do in the name of Islam is a sin. I would also agree with the sentiment that Islam is supposed to be friendly with Israel according to their own scriptures. After all, Islam is supposed to draw its heritage from the same founding fathers as the Jews.

[Demidog]

That's not true. I didn't insult you. I stated that given your other statements about Palestinians, it was odd that you would quote a work that gives credence to the very religion and people that you have denigrated.

[Demidog]

I would like to see the text of the speech. The ADL hasn't exactly proven itself a reliable source. But somebody else has also said that the rabbi has said similar statements so perhaps it's true.

[Demidog]

But I did give reasons why not to accept his opinion and that of Neurei Karta in general.

Yes. You specifically uttered the words "trust me."

The 90% number comes from where? I don't know which one of you is "right" if either of you is right. There hasn't been a debate about what is really said in the Talmud for us to know here or elsewhere. I was actually hoping that some of that would occur here.

[Demidog]

Right, just like what we are doing to poor Usama.

Last I checked Usama got away and we really haven't done anything to him at all unless you think that bombing Afghanistan has something significant to do with bin Laden.

Tell me demi. DO you think its fair for us to fight those who want to destroy us and then tell Israel that it must learn to get along with those who want to destroy it???

The Afghan people had nothing to do with 9/11.

[Demidog]

You couldn't back him up.

It wasn't my purpose to back him up. Again you are trying to create a conflict where none exists.

[liberalism=failure]

The Afghan people had nothing to do with 9/11.

No, but their leaders did. Just as the Palestinian leadership wants to destroy Israel, indeed their entire population would like to see Israel destroyed.

Lemme ask you demi, when was the last time you felt like getting along with someone whose only desire is to see you dead?

Answer that and then you can tell me why Israelis should make any effort to get along with Palestinians.

[liberalism=failure]

...unless you think that bombing Afghanistan has something significant to do with bin Laden.

Of course it does, they are the country that harbored him.

SO, demi, are you an apologist for murderers all the time, or do you just play one on the web?

[Demidog]

No, but their leaders did.

No. They didn't. Not even our own government is saying this. They're simply saying that because the Afghan leadership didn't cowtow to their demands they are guilty of "harboring terrorists" and must be killed. Notice that "freeeing" the Afghan people from the Taliban wasn't a reason given, it was a by-product. And in fact will probably only be temporary if the Northern Alliance comes to power.

Of course that hasn't stopped us from dropping bombs on villages at the behest of Northern Alliance "intelligence" reports.

when was the last time you felt like getting along with someone whose only desire is to see you dead?

That is a fallacy. I don't know how many people that would cover on the Palestinian side but enough Palestinians sneak across the border to work in Jewish shops that I don't think it would be accurate to even say that it was most Palestinians.

[Demidog]

SO, demi, are you an apologist for murderers all the time

I've never offered any apology for any murderer.

[rebdov]

This is Also to whoever else is participating and whose name I forgot to include.

"While I can't claim to have read the Talmud (due to the fact that I am prevented from so doing) "

Someone ranted this inanity. The Talmud is available in 3 English translations. It is available in public libraries and some universities. Is this statement some kind of proclamation from the Spotlight? I have read the same rant dozens of times here on FR and on many other sites over the years. Is there an official talking points page? Usually they make claims from non-existent tractates or from page numbers in a tractate that are beyond the actual number of pages.

What do they think the Talmud is; the secret plans of the Jews to take over the world? The Talmud contains for the most part legal discussions and debates of Jewish law and some explanation of verses in the Bible to instruct proper conduct and the Torah outlook of the world. No secret decoder rings needed; no tin-foil inserts. Nothing hidden; no mysteries.

By the way, for a point of interest. The Introduction to the Medrash on Lamentations says that the Neturei Karta are the elementary and secondary school teachers. The Medrash says that without them being properly supported the city does not deserve to exist. Neturei Karta means Guardians of the City. Those who teach the children are the true guardians; not the police and not the army.

[Lent]

That's not true. I didn't insult you. I stated that given your other statements about Palestinians, it was odd that you would quote a work that gives credence to the very religion and people that you have denigrated.

You insulted by stating that I advocated slaughtering all Muslims or something to that effect. Why don't you quote what you stated to me? Is it because it would back up that what you did was insult my position? Maybe instead of just posting inanities it's time to back up what you post. My position concerning Islam is that it's chief problem is that when it is joined with the Nazi ideology of Pan Arab nationalism then you have a nazi ideology under the cloak of religion. Obviously, a guy like Palazzi recognizes the insidious nature of Arab nationalism and he states it for what it is. You, you appear unable to make those fine distinctions necessary for intelligent discussion.