Hydrogen Powered Cars! HA!

1/25/2002 | John Jamieson

[John Jamieson]

500 hp is just around the corner, if gas stays cheap. Engine will probably turn 900rpm in 8th gear at 60 to meet mpg requirements.

Nothing is really going to happen utol gas hits $3. At that point the fuel will begin to be a significant part of the cost of ownership. Most people don't even realize that their cars cost them between 60 cents and a dollar a mile to buy and operate.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Pound for pound, not counting substrate, just active ingredients. $5 per watt for a microscopic layer of silicon is priced beyond my means."

Come now! You know better than that. The silicon substrate is probably $0.02 of the price. What you are paying for is the knowledge embedded in the device, not the silicon.

[RightWhale]

We can do that to the value of diamonds and gold, too.

What is the intrinsic value of diamond? About the same as the value of a piece of anthracite coal of the same weight, I'd say.

And gold? Any intrinsic value there? Just a little better grade of copper, isn't it?

[Wonder Warthog]

"We can do that to the value of diamonds and gold, too."

Yup, and the ratio of embedded knowledge in that solar cell silicon is about 10^2 to 10^3 greater than the diamond or gold (more so for the diamond than the gold). After all, both the raw gold and natural diamonds already exist in their natural state--silicon doesn't. It took massive knowledge development just to make pure silicon.

[HardStarboard]

>>>You then exercise good engineering judgement and manage the remaining high-level wastes where they will not get loose in the environment. <<<

The plan that seems to make the most sense is to encapsulate the radioactive waste in glass beads and sink them three miles down in an old salt mine - or a special purpose built deep cave.

This process is being developed by a friends brother at UC Davis in the ceramic engineering dept. I think he has published a number of papers on the technique.

The biggest problem with nuclear waste is that the enviro/socialist watermelons won't be satisfied with anything you do....so the plan should be to ignore them!!

[stboz]

The biggest problem with nuclear waste is that the enviro/socialist watermelons won't be satisfied with anything you do....so the plan should be to ignore them!!

I have begun to think that some type of operant conditioning is required. Fit the little fart-blossoms with dog-training collars. Every time they run their mouths, shock the tar out of 'em. They'll finally get the message to shut up unless they have something intelligent to say.

[LS]

Having worked on the National Aerospace Plane program, which was to use slush hydrogen for fuel in the aircraft, the most stunning SUCCESS we had was in manufacturing, storing, pumping, and burning slush hydrogen.

Your points are well taken---basically that it is quite expensive. So was whale oil before the advent of large whaling ships, and so was kerosene, then gasoline, before John Rockefeller and his refining process.

If we have learned anything, it is that if MONEY is the ONLY obstacle to something, it isn't much of an obstacle. Already the Saudis and Bahranians are using numerous desalinazation plants---which was "too expensive" when I was younger.

H2 is closer than you think.

[aruanan]

Excellent.

[aruanan]

What is the intrinsic value of diamond? About the same as the value of a piece of anthracite coal of the same weight, I'd say.

In the world of resources, there is no such thing as intrinsic value. There is only imputed value in the context of a possible use.

[HardStarboard]

>>> Fit the little fart-blossoms with dog-training collars. Every time they run their mouths, shock the tar out of 'em.<<<

This assumes that enviro/socialist democrat watermelons have the IQ of your average dog....this is quite a stretch. The saying; "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", with "democrat" substituted for "old dog" applies here. Also sub. "any" for "new"!!

[John Jamieson]

NOT if it's made from hydrocarbons or electricity made from hydrocarbons......that's the point!

[LS]

Maybe, but that wasn't the gist of your post, which was that "hydrogen powered cars HA!" won't work. SOME TYPES of hydrogen powered cars will.

[John Jamieson]

You should read the entire thing.

[larrysav]

Listen all you people who constantly bicker how making a hydrogen car. Well, it is f**king possible. I would know this because I made one of my own.

I went back and re-read the article and I still can't see where JJ claimed that hydrogen powered cars were impossible.

This debate always degenerates into those who know how to do an energy balance and those who don't. Hydrogen is a storage medium for energy. It is not a source of energy...at least until we find some vast hydrogen reservoir somewhere.

We mine energy now. In doing so, we release the primordial energy stored after billions of years of energy storage by the ecosystem. This includes the storage of energy in rotting plants that formed crude oil and natural gas, the energy from the fission of elements created in the formation of the earth, from the primordial fusion of the sun, the rotational (gravitational) energy of the sun and moon and the primordial heat from the creation of the earth (geothermal). There is no free lunch and no free energy.

Where does your hydrogen come from?

[Old Professer]

Carbon has an atomic weight of 12; one horsepower=746watts; the propane(parafin)chain formula for hydrocarbons is C_n+H_2n+2 (methane:CH₄);recalculate your numbers and repost so we can review this, please.

[Old Professer]

Most of the methanol in this country is made from methane; ethanol is made from grain; Brazil probably adulterates the fuel with methanol to make it dangerously non-potable.

[John Jamieson]

All that is wonderfully true. Looks like the same numbers I used. What calculation do you think is wrong?

A hydrogen based economy is surely possible with massive nuclear power, but not otherwise. It would really be a nuclear economy, but I guess hydrogen sounds better.

Nuclear would be the real energy source and hydrogen is an energy carrier. A large nuclear plant could condense co2 out of the air, release the oxygen and put the carbon back into old coal mines, acting like a real plant! The electricty would would put on the grid or used to make H2 from water. We'd have to watch the total amount of 02 polution we made!

[John Jamieson]

Oh, I see the problem with the atomic weight of carbon. Got Carbon 14 on the brain. You're right but it changes the results very little.

Took you 10 months to catch me!