Why I Believe Predestination

Okay, I did not used to believe predestination. I used to believe free will and did not know any better. When I first heard of predestination, I was horrified and actually angry. It seemed like it made God into some horrible monster. After a lot of study though, I had to change my mind and I now embrace predestination, often resulting in having to defend it to shocked Christian friends. Hopefully, this defense will help others understand my thinking.

First, if free will is accurate, why hasn’t an Almighty God been able to convince everyone to come and have eternal life if he wants everyone to be saved? Doesn’t Scripture say God’s will is accomplished? I think it does. If I am correct on this, predestination is the only logical position because Arminians would make God into a liar when he says he wants to save "all," yet he is too weak to do so (in the free will view of things). Let’s look at some examples of what the Bible says about God’s power:

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

And God did it only because "it seemed good in [His] sight." The fact that God can reveal and hide the truth from people indicates his sovereignty to me and indicates that he has ultimate dominion over what occurs and his will is what gets done.

6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.

3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

It should be noted here that God says He will harden Pharaoh’s heart himself! Scripture also says later simply that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, however obviously it was because of God as the LORD has said here. I think that is interesting because in my view, it shows that if one did not read the verse above first, they would think Pharaoh just simply hardened his heart by himself. I think we have similar thinking in the New Testament where people assume we choose God by ourselves since that is what it looks like when you read it in a non-close manner and don’t look at the big picture of things. I know I made that mistake.

6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and brings up.

8 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the beggar from the ash heap, to set them among princes and make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and He has set the world upon them.

9 He will guard the feet of His saints, but the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail.

So here it says that God gives and takes life, changes the earthly welfare of people, even puts people into governmental power! Yes, God is powerful and I don’t see any hint of him not being able to do whatever he pleases. Remember above where it said almost exactly "he does whatever he pleases." God gets his will accomplished and it covers EVERYTHING.

27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together

35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; he does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

God does his will in heaven and earth! NOBODY can restrain his hand. This is a pretty powerful passage and a humbling one....

27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

God himself says that there is NOTHING too hard for him. Now, how can this be if there is free will, God wants all to be saved, yet not everyone is? I think the solution is then that not everyone was meant to be and the fact man is sinful makes that case stronger. I will talk about that later.

2 "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

NO purpose of God’s can be kept from being realized. When God wants to do something, it gets done!

Philippians 2:13 tells us: "It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

God works in us to fulfill his will! Ultimately, it is his will that is accomplished!

I think the above Scriptures are plenty to demonstrate the power of God. God is King and when he wills something, it will be accomplished. There is a reason why the NT always talks about Christ purchasing salvation or his death being a ransom and I haven’t at least yet found something where anyone writes saying "and the cross made it possible that I could have life and I chose him."......I think God willed something specific behind the death of Christ. If there was free will instead of predestination, God’s will was not accomplished to save everyone. Therefore, I think God had to will to save only a lot of people, not everyone. I believe he had to have predestined certain people to be saved or the Cross would well, end up being a failure since not everyone has come like God intended (if free will would be right). Next, I will talk about the sinful nature of man and ask how people can come to Christ when they hate him. I will conclude this little discussion with some Scriptural support for predestination. So.....you see I am first coming here trying to address the nature of God and then the nature of man which raises questions as to how we can even have free will....and then directly address predestination specifically. The issues of God’s sovereignty and the nature of people is ultimately what underlies predestination so I am addressing them first and tying them to predestination.

What is the nature of man? Well, people DID have free will at one time. We had a completely free will at the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. However, after that, the Bible says our will is enslaved. Once we believe in Christ, we no longer are enslaved to sin, though we still struggle with it. But, natural man (unsaved people) IS enslaved to sin and can’t know God. Let’s look at Scripture on this topic.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Now, in this passage, it says that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (the unsaved). In the last verse, it speaks of those who God has "called" as not being caught up in the foolishness and instead coming to God and recognizing the Gospel. So here we see the cross is not a message the world loves and people hate it unless God "calls" them....in this passage calling refers to God’s action of bringing someone to himself and since he does not do this with everyone, predestination is implied I think.

1 Cor 2:11-14
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man WITHOUT the Spirit DOES NOT ACCEPT the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

In this verse, we see a person without the Spirit does not accept and can’t understand God’s truth of the Gospel. Thus, the Spirit has to do its work to make someone recognize this truth and he works on only some people and logic would dictate I think that these people would be the predestined ones since I don’t know what alternative solution there can be.

Rom 6:20-23
20 When you were SLAVES to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in DEATH!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You see here, when one is not saved, they are slaves to sin! Their enslavement results in death, not just physical, but spiritual. Remember the Garden of Eden when God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit? Well, they did not die, did they? Actually.....they did not die physically, BUT in reality, they did die spiritually. They became estranged from God after the Fall and so did all of the human race. We all inherited Adam’s sin.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man resurrect himself? It is only by the grace of God and His working in us that we can and we can’t even initiate it since we are dead. When we are saved, he brings us back to life.

17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

The fleshly sinful nature is CONTARY to the spirit. They are at war, not at harmony. How is it possible for a dead, enslaved man to come to faith unless the Spirit makes the first move and actually changes him (converts him) FIRST before the person makes a profession of faith himself? Since God has not sent the Spirit to convert everyone, everyone was not intended to be saved and have a new nature placed in them.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The mind of the unsaved is against God and can’t even be subject to God’s law. He can’t know God by his own action. God again must do something to ensure his salvation if he wants him saved.

Now, we have seen God is sovereign and all-powerful. We have seen he does what he wishes and accomplishes his will. We have seen all people are infected with the sin of Adam and Eve and how we hate God and can’t even know him in our state of being when we are not saved. Since this is the case, God has chosen to do something about it since well, obviously some are saved! If he did not, nobody would be saved since our nature is to hate God. God could not have even just made salvation possible for all on the Cross since nobody would come due to our natures. Therefore, I now turn to evidence that directly addresses predestination in Scripture. I believe this is what God did to solve the problem of our depravity and his desire to save people on the cross. I believe the Cross was meant to save a group of people, not just be there for everyone in a possibility, for Scripture refers to the Cross as accomplishing something all the time. Of course, predestination does not mean we aren’t to evangelize, for the Gospel is how God works in people’s hearts to save those he wants to save, the predestined.

This is Jesus saying that every single person God wants and draws to Christ WILL come to Him and accept Christ. God gives people to Christ and that is significant because it shows not everyone has been selected by God to be given to Christ or we would all be saved since it says "all....the father gives me shall come...." It also shows that God does take a very active role in our salvation...in fact, the lead role by taking charge and giving us to Christ.

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That verse is a parallelism, showing that the ones that believe Jesus is the Son of God are also the ones that God GIVES Jesus. God has given a people to Christ to be his followers.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse is big and goes back to the sinful nature of man also. NOBODY can come to Christ (Jesus is speaking here, by the way) unless the Father draws him! We are filthy sinners in our natural state and can’t come and that is why this is so. Jesus makes it clear here GOD DRAWS US...we don’t just come and get saved. It is God’s will exercised which results in our salvation. Everyone the father gives Christ will come; THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. I think that is a really important point here..... Who gets drawn? Well, I would argue a predestined people. Otherwise, God is just drawing people without a set purpose, which is not what he does. He always has a systematic purpose for things and the Cross itself was a systematic thing. It was all planned out. Scripture shows that in passages I already showed earlier.

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Names are put in the book of life from the beginning of time, "the foundation of the world." This supports predestination because God wrote names of some people and ignored the names of others. Now, some say, "God predestined based on the foreknowledge of God." While I don’t argue with this (one passage even says, "predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God" in the NT), the interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not say we are predestined because God foresaw that we would accept him (this is what most think of when they see "foreknowledge"). 1 Pet 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." Now, the verse I just quoted is what I am talking about. Nobody can truly bring out of this a view that God predestined as a result of our coming to him. First, you can’t take that from the text since that is taking a lot of liberty with a very narrow phrase "elect according to the foreknowledge". Second, left to free will, we would all reject God (remember above where we are all enslaved to sin in our natural state). Third, foreknowledge, by necessity, IMPLIES GOD’S ORDAINING OF ACTIONS AND EVENTS. After all, for one thing, unless God ordained who would be saved, he would not be able to see who would come to him anyway since otherwise there would be no definite events and well, also nobody would come due to their rebellious nature. He would only have chaos and nothing to see.

"In this verse the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in <1 Pet 1:20>. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world. The Greek verb proegnosmenou, meaning literally, "foreknown" (as in the Revised Version (British and American)) is translated "foreordained" in the King James Version. It is evidently God's foreordination of Jesus as Saviour which Peter has in mind. Also in <1 Pet 1:2> those to whom the apostle is writing are characterized as "elect according to the foreknowledge (prognosis) of God," where the election is based on the "foreknowledge." By the prognosis or foreknowledge, however, far more is meant than prescience. It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure. If it meant simply prevision of faith or love or any quality in the objects of the election, Peter would not only flatly contradict Paul <Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3-4; 2 Tim 1:9>; but also such a rendering would conflict with the context of this passage, because the objects of election are chosen "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of .... Christ," so that their new obedience and relation to Christ are determined by their election by God, which election springs from a "foreknowledge" which therefore cannot mean a mere prescience."

Thus, this really supports my position, (even the non-Calvinist Bible Dictionary admits foreknowledge needs God’s ordaining of something to go along with it anyway) that God sent Christ to die for specific people and the Holy Spirit converts those predestined when they hear the Gospel.

16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been APPOINTED to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29, 30, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified."

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."

26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' there they shall be called sons of the living God."

Okay, here it speaks of predestination (election) in the parenthesis for those not yet even born! Paul goes on to say here that there is no unrighteousness with God for selecting one person over another for salvation and goes on to quote the OT where God said he would have mercy on whom he would have mercy and harden whom he will. Then Paul knows someone will cry out and say, "How can God condemn me when it is his will that has damned me!?" Well, Paul comes back and asks how one can talk back to God when the Potter made us, the clay to fulfill his purposes. He goes on to say God created vessels (people) for honor and dishonor.

Ephesians 1:5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will"

11: "In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."

This verse speaks of remembering our election (predestination). The Bible doesn’t view it as a horrid and cruel thing of God. The writers recognized it as a wonderful thing and something that we, as Christians, should rejoice at. PRAISE GOD THAT HE HAS SAVED ME WHEN I KNOW WITHOUT HIM I WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!!!!!!!

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

Here in the Psalms we see the belief that God MADE someone trust in him. God didn’t just let some free will lead them wherever.....he actually made them come and trust in Him. What a radical concept and so foreign to what we are used to thinking!

John 17:1-3:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God has given Christ authority over all flesh and ordained that He should give eternal life "to as many" as God gave him. Not more, not less....but "to as many" as God wanted saved.

I hope this helps you to understand more of my beliefs and I hope it has made you think. I want to make sure you remember how Scripture says we are dead in sin before we are saved and it is something to ponder how one can be saved if this is true unless God predestined you to be saved and passed over someone else. It seems really harsh of God and it almost makes God seem mean and evil to save some, yet not try to save others. But, I must remember Paul in Romans 9, when he said who are we to judge God. I must remember that predestination is "for the good pleasure of His will" and it isn’t all about me. God does it this way because he wants to. I can’t judge God for it, though sometimes I would like to do so. God knows more than I can ever imagine about what is true, about what is right and God is more holy than even one little cell of my body. God is more perfect than the most perfect creation of man by a million miles and I must remember I am not God.....I am just a creature he made to bring him glory and yet I must bow my knees in thanksgiving that he gave me life, I must bow my knees in thanksgiving for saving me of all the people when I would blaspheme his name in my old ways! Praise be to his Holy name. I must remember also that if God was really fair, I would be in hell right now. His grace in choosing me is more than I can ever understand. His grace in choosing you is great indeed. Thank God for his love shown to you. Even if you don’t believe predestination after reading this, thank God for saving you. Thank God for his mercy and grace. Thank God that he raised you out of the pit and mire of your former self and changed you to love him and begin to show your love to others. Predestination might not be fair, but it sure is a lot better than free will, since everyone would have to reject God by their sinful nature, in my reading of Scripture.

Often there is an analogy to Jesus as a life raft that we can just grab on to in order to save ourselves. I believe that to be a wrong analogy since well, an unsaved person is not drowning spiritually, he is already dead according to Scripture. So, here is my version of this analogy and what I consider the Gospel: When I lay dead on the bottom of a turbulent sea, God took pity and only out of his mercy alone, sent his Son Jesus down to me. Jesus dove to the bottom of the lake and resurrected me. I could not have done anything....I was dead spiritually. I was a goner and could not have came back to life at all unless Jesus made me. On that bottom of the lake, he gave me life and showered me with his loving arms, taking me to the top of the lake and bringing me to safety. I then arose, full of the new life. Jesus was not a life raft that I grabbed onto, he was a doctor who came TO ME and gave me life. I am forever thankful.

God bless you and may you trust in him and find peace whether you end up believing predestination or not.

"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy." Thomas Watson

You dang free willers need to actually use your brain and read your Bible.

Translation: I'm right, you're wrong. Not exactly open-minded are you, rw?

Well, it's not that easy, Kansas.

God wants all of His creation, mankind, to be with him in His kingdom for eternity but sin separates us from a righteous God. We cannot totally overcome sin as it enters into our thoughts as well as our deeds. The apostle Paul was well aware of this and wrote about it; you may have read his letter. Jesus is our savior as He paid the price of sin - spiritual death - for mankind. Mankind could not do it, only the perfect Christ could, and did. To claim that God 'predestined' only a portion of mankind to be with Him in paradise is incorrect in my view as it makes Christ's sacrifice unnecessary. Scripture states that He was 'raised up' (on the cross) so that he would draw all men to him. Jesus spoke of the 'narrow gate' (Christ) that leads to salvation and talked about the 'wide path' that leads to destruction (hell). If 'all men' were 'predestined' to either heaven or hell, who would need a path to follow? Christ made the point that mankind chooses which path to take, which is, ta-da...free will.

Mankind is born with free will - the ability to mentally and emotionally reject God and Christ, and many do. However, all human beings are called to God through many sources, including nature and it's reflection of God's hand. God's plan is for all to come to Him and he reveals Himself to us - often through His word - and opens the door to salvation during our lifetimes but most ignore it and will not accept the gift of salvation. That is free will.

'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's. At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'. On that great and fateful day, Jesus will say, "I know him" or "I know him not" but that choice will have been made by us, not God. We accept or reject Jesus Christ on our own. Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish. To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.

You are free to espouse any view you choose but issuing pronouncments that instruct those who hold a differing point of view to 'use your brain' and 'read your bible' do not persuade much less convince anyone of your depth of study on this spiritual and scriptual matter of overbearing importance. You might take your own advice.

A note: Reading some of the typical smug, mocking responses on this thread to an issue that has nothing to do with atheists but still draws them to a thread that is a discussion of spiritual matters they claim to find absurd and foolish is interesting. Human beings, breathing the air God provides but rejecting and mocking the idea of His existence. How sad.

First, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Second, the question of free will vs predestination is interesting to non-Christians as well. Third, I am not rejecting the idea of God's existence; I acknowledge it as a possibility. I do reject rwfromkansas's concept of a "loving" God who arbitrarily dooms billions of souls to hell; I find your theory much more reasonable. But I'll retire from this thread and let you guys fight it out amongst yourselves.

To claim that God 'predestined' only a portion of mankind to be with Him in paradise is incorrect in my view as it makes Christ's sacrifice unnecessary.

Unscriptural. The point is that He didn't have to choose any, yet He did.

'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's.

Unscriptural. Our state of being away from God took place with the Original Sin committed in the garden of Eden. We are born and shapen in iniquity, ergo, born without a will to choose God and born spiritually dead.

At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'.

Unscriptural. It's true that only the Blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world pays for our sin. No one is saying that "predestination" saves any man. But you are attempting to portray it as such. Simply not so. Notice how you've omitted the fact that in order to see Heaven, one must be born again. You can't leave that out!

Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish.

All blame lies at the feet of Adam.

To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.

This does not absolve anyone. Also, this is not "cherry-picking," but an inclusion of all scripture.

Try again.

To the Predistinationists and those they are predestined to annoy:

1. In using the Bible to support your beliefs you have to use logical arguments such as "The Bible says A therefore B must follow." However, when someone else makes a logical argument that doesn't involve a quote from the Bible, you ridicule him and tell him to go back to his Bible.

My question to you, is why use logic at all? Why not just show the Bible quotes if logic is in and of itself invalid in such discussions? Also if I find a Bible quote that says something to the effect "If you do A then B will follow" doesn't this suggest that logic in and of itself is a good thing?

2. Just because we have finite minds, doesn't mean we can't have any concept of the infinite. In fact we have many concepts of the infinite. We even know about different sorts of infinity (e.g. countably infinite, uncountably infinite, etc.) Just because we can't now, nor maybe ever, fully comprehend the mind of God, doesn't mean we shouldn't always strive to know him better. Some of this striving can be through greater understanding of the Bible, but some of this striving can also be through theological and philosophical speculation. At least that's what Calvin in part tried to do.

3. Calvinists seem to claim that we fools don't get it because we don't understand how a loving God could predestine us to Hell. Maybe it is the Calvinists that don't understand how an all-knowing God could create a universe with enough wiggle room to allow us free will. If you claim that we cannot know the ways of God, then how do you know in which ways we don't understand the ways of God? How are you sure that our lack of understanding is foolishness and your lack of understanding is humility when it could just as easily be vice-versa?

4. From a purely philosophical point of view it might be the case that regardless of whether or not there is a God, we are still predestined. Boris has put forth one argument regarding causality. I have heard another argument that goes something like this: If there is a knowable future, then we are predestined, i.e. if we can travel into the future to a single specific time without branching off into a parallel universe, then we are predestined. Again, if you guys are so keen on predestination, and there are valid philosophical arguments that buttress you beliefs without need for Bible quotes, then why aren't you all over them? Maybe you can get one of the evil atheists or mushy agnostics on this thread to eventually move your way by first getting them to believe in predestination and then later accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?

5. Your comments, as almost all Calvinists comments on threads such as these, express none of the intelligence or love of the God you claim to speak for. I often wonder why there are so many Calvinists on a website called FreeRepublic. If you are right and most of us are predestined to be continuously burnt and digested by maggots for eternity in a pitch black, stench-filled Hell, then I suppose your childish taunts and vague attempts at logic and reasoning are meant as an annoying poke in the eye from God before he flicks us with his middle finger into our just rewards!

May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with the Elect.

May the rest of us be blessed with at least a few good steaks, scotches, and friends before becoming quick-fried maggot food.

So to you then, I suppose, this passage from Lincoln's second inaugural address doesn't appear, as it does to me, to be the raving of a crazed fanatic.

"The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."

Again, God has chosen certain people from the foundation of the world. HOWEVER....THEY ARE NOT SAVED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, JUST MARKED FOR FUTURE SALVATION. The Holy Spirit's conversion of the elect is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL! It is an integral and vital part of God's plan for salvation and it falls apart without the Gospel being preached to actually save the people who were chosen. You see, it DOES matter what the elect do. For one thing, if we live in sin instead of growing in holiness until the end of our lives it is CLEAR evidence that the Holy Spirit, which brings us a new nature, DID NOT come to us. Therefore, it is quite clear that we would be deluded if we thought we were elect in such a case. And quite frankly, if any of the "elect" decided that glorifying God with his life was not worth the effort, I frankly doubt he is elect in the first place. It does matter what the elect do due to the Holy Spirit.

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