Man died in hours, doctor says - Windshield Hit & Run Murder Charge Stands

Actually, here in Texas we use the Comfy Gurney.

Man!
Regarding Peerwani and Waco, you make it SOUND as if Peerwani did all the work and autopsies HIMSELF - which is patently untrue!
From a documant titled:

Forensic Pathology Evaluation of the 1993
Branch Davidian Deaths and Other Pertinent
Issues
Prepared for the
Office of Special Counsel
John C. Danforth
By
Michael A. Graham, M.D.
Professor of Pathology
Co-director, Division of Forensic Pathology
Saint Louis University School of Medicine

I extracted this:
The remains were processed and examined by a multi-agency multi-disciplinary team of experts and support personnel under the overall supervision of Nizam Peerwani, M.D. (forensic pathologist and Tarrant County Chief Medical Examiner). The processing/examining personnel consisted of forensic pathologists, dentists, anthropologists, latent print examiners, toxicologists, criminalists, photographers, radiology technician and support personnel. Additional anthropology assistance was rendered by personnel from the University of Tennessee (Knoxville).

Yeah or "he had not died that long prior to being discovered."

They have no idea when he was hit except her word.

This doctor couldn't tell his butt from his elbow.

I'm waiting for you to retract that ...

"One way to really destroy the evidence carried by the corpse is to let a nincompoop do the autopsy." -- Anonymous

That quote by Screaming Fist say's it all.
Nincompoop is an understatement.

Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure that he was the same guy.

A review of Peerwani's crew's work was performed by the individual who wrote the report I cited earlier - here is an excerpt of that work:
Page 9 of 151
Davidians killed by firearms and later recovered from the burning structure were found in the communications room (MC 7, 8), kitchen/stairway/serving area (MC 43, 44, 45), (MC 20, 21, 22), top of concrete bunker (MC 34, 35, 36, 39, 41), on the surface in the concrete bunker (MC 31A, 31DE, 47) and in the concrete bunker debris (MC 53, 56, 66, 67-7/67-8).
Each of the Branch Davidian decedents succumbed to handgun/rifle injuries except one, MC 47, who died of a shotgun wound to the head. There were 16 Branch Davidian decedents with gunshot/shotgun wounds restricted to the head (12 adults and 4 children) (14 with single shots and 2 with multiple shots), 6 with gunshot injuries isolated to the torso (4 adults and 2 children) and 4 having gunshots to the head and torso (4 adults).
The determination of muzzlevictim distance, i.e. range of fire, involves identifying the presence and/or absence on or in the body of a variety of materials that are discharged from the muzzle of the gun in addition to the projectile.
These materials include flame, gas, smoke and gunpowder particles. The presence of searing, tissue disruption by gas and/or soot-powder propelled into the wound track indicates the muzzle of the gun was in contact with or very close to the surface when the gun was discharged. Gunsmoke deposited on the surface of the body, usually in conjunction with marks caused by powder particles striking the body (powder stippling or tattooing) denote a close range wound (usually within approximately 1 foot).
Powder stippling in the absence of smoke indicates a maximum range of fire of 2-3 feet depending on a variety of factors including the physical configuration of the gunpowder particles. Any material between the muzzle and the skin surface (such as clothing, dense scalp hair or other intermediate target) may affect the ability of these firearm discharge products from reaching the skin and thus affect the ability to accurately determine the range of fire. In the absence of material interposed between the muzzle and the target, wounds lacking the aforementioned features are classified as distant wounds. It should be remembered that in scientific parlance a distant wound is generally any wound received in excess of a few feet and does not necessarily entail great distances between the shooter and target. The progressive spread of shotgun pellets as the muzzle-target distance increases is also used to further estimate the range of fire in shotgun wounds caused by pellets.
Page 10 of 151
All of the gunshot injuries seen in the decedents recovered from the burned structure are consistent with having been received from guns fired from within the structure itself.
I do not see any evidence to indicate any of the Branch Davidian decedents recovered from the burned structure received gunshot injuries originating outside the complex on April 19, 1993. There is no pathological evidence to suggest than any firearm death on April 19, 1993, was caused by a U.S. Government agent.
Determination of the range of fire is able to be made in 12 Davidian gunshot fatalities and, to a limited degree, in the shotgun wound death. The effects of fire and decomposition preclude determining the range of fire in 13 decedents. Range of fire determinations are made in individuals recovered from the burned structure (MC 7, 8, 20, 21, 41, 31DE, 47), burial sites (MC 76, 77, 78, 79, 80) and ravine (MC 81). Of the 20 individuals recovered from the burned structure, range of fire is able to be determined in wounds involving 6 of them (5 adults and 1 child). Each of these individuals (MC 7, 8, 20, 21, 41, 31DE) have head wounds involving very close-contact range. Ranges of fire of other gunshot wounds are not able to be determined due to the loss of tissue at the entry sites and, in some cases, the loss of interposed clothing. The absence of the aforementioned markers used to determine the range of fire in those cases where alterations of the body (i.e., decomposition, fire, loss of interposed clothing) may have obscured or erased them does not mean the wounds are distant range wounds. The adult with the shotgun wound (MC 47) sustained the injury at a muzzle-target distance before the pellets extensively spread (certainly from a shotgun discharged within the complex).
The extent of the tissue damage and the ammunition recovered from the bodies indicates wounding by low velocity ammunition with the exception of 1 person recovered from a grave (MC 77) who sustained a very close/contact range high velocity gunshot injury to the head (.223 caliber). Although one of the experts who previously reviewed some of the deaths opined that the .223 injury was received from a substantial distance or through an intermediate target because the bullet did not perforate the head as, according to this expert, a high velocity bullet would, the deposition of grossly apparent gunpowder in the depths of the wound conclusively indicates that the gunshot was received at very close/contact range.
I did not see any wounds that suggested to me the use of a sniper rifle (.50 caliber or .308 caliber).
Branch Davidian decedents with wounds consistent with being self-inflicted were found in the burned structure (MC 7, 8, 43, 20, 21, 41) and graves (MC 77, 80). Some areas of the burned structure contained remains of more than one person having wounds consistent with being self-inflicted. However, even though these wounds could have been self-inflicted, the possibility that they were inflicted by another person cannot be excluded. Determining whether a gunshot wound is self-inflicted or not involves assessing the range of fire, accessability of the entry site and physical/mental capability of the person. Any wound that is consistent with being self-inflicted could also have been inflicted by another person. Self-inflicted wounds are usually in relatively predictable sites but are not exclusive or restricted to these sites. A large number of the gunshot wounds of the head found in the remains involved entry sites typical of self-infliction (forehead, temple, oral cavity). The range of fire of some of these wounds was able to be determined and found to be very close-contact. All the contact gunshot wounds of the head found in adult Branch Davidian decedents recovered from the burned structure involved entry sites typical of being self-inflicted. However, when interpreting these “typical” injuries it must be remembered that they were not sustained in a “typical” event; instead, they have been sustained in an “atypical” situation by individuals who are not “typical” members of the general population.
Overall, the pattern of the gunshots involving the head supports self-destruction either by overt suicide, consensual execution (suicide by proxy) or, less likely, forced execution by “death squad.” At least one child (MC 31DE) sustained a very close-contact gunshot wound. The wounds sustained by 5 adults (MC 45, 22, 36, 39, 66) and 6 children (MC 35, 31A, 31DE, 53, 56, 67-7/67-8) recovered from the burned structure do not appear to be self-inflicted. Not enough information is available to assess whether the wounds of 3 other Branch Davidian decedents (MC 34, 44, 47) were likely self-inflicted. Two bodies recovered from the concrete tornado shelter grave site have gunshot wounds involving the head which may have been selfinflicted.
The entry site involving the .223 injury (MC 77) is accessible to self-infliction using this type of weapon but is not a typical entry site of a self-inflicted rifle injury and is more likely a wound inflicted by someone else. The other body (MC 80) has an intraoral gunshot entry site which, although it is a very typical entry site for a self-inflicted injury, it is not necessarily selfinflicted and can be inflicted by someone else. In this case (MC 80), surviving Branch Davidians Kathryn Schroeder and David Thibodeau indicate Mr. Jones may have been killed by another Branch Davidian. The wounds of the other individuals recovered from the graves and from the ravine are not consistent with being self-inflicted. Some of the distant entry wounds found in the Branch Davidian decedents buried in graves or found in the ravine were caused by government agents during shooting incidents on February 28, 1993. One Branch Davidian decedent (MC 79) sustained gunshot wounds of the torso and arm apparently from government agents’ fire and was subsequently executed by a fellow Branch Davidian who administered two lethal close-contact wounds to the head/neck area. One Branch Davidian (MC 8) apparently received a non-lethal gunshot during the firefight associated with the initial confrontation at the complex and subsequently received a lethal gunshot to the head on the day of the fire. Another Branch Davidian (MC 51) who died of undetermined cause on the day of the fire had received a gunshot wound of the hand on February 28, 1993.
The characteristics of the wounds also allow some assessment of the accuracy of accounts offered by various individuals involved in the incident describing the course of events (see case evaluations regarding MC 76, 77, 79, 80 and 81).

Isn't Peerwani the same ME that did the autopsies on the Branch Davidian bodies and every thing came out just the way FBI wanted it?

He was but one of MANY who worked this aspect ...

She's still a murderer whether it was hours or days.

That quote by Screaming Fist say's it all. Nincompoop is an understatement.

One must also consider the source of that quote and info -

- Carol A. Valentine's website ...

Of course, the more simpler-minded on the board suck in all that swill as if it were absolute gospel.

Underscore Jim, Peerwani is lengendary around the Ft. Worth area, not only for the WACO debacle, but also for his work with Physicians for Human Rights, where he (amoung others) accused Israel of violating UN Laws and Geneva Conventions on Murder, Torture, Cruel and Degrading Treatment of Palestinians. Not to mention his offices accounting practices, which were in the news a few years back.

Lawyers in Waco suit say morgue cooler failed

By Jack Douglas Jr.
and Karen Brooks
Star-Telegram staff writers

This article contains graphic language.

FORT WORTH -- Lawyers in a wrongful-death suit against the federal government said yesterday that they have been unable to fully explore the deaths of about 80 Branch Davidians in 1993 because many of their bodies liquefied when a cooler failed at the Tarrant County morgue.

The attorneys are also pursuing reports from a pathologist hired by the family of Davidian Jimmy Riddle that portions of Riddle's body disappeared during the more than two years it was stored in Fort Worth.

The missing body parts and the failure of a refrigeration unit at the morgue are expected to be debated as part of a wrongful-death trial scheduled to begin next month in Waco.

The cooler failed weeks after Medical Examiner Nizam Peerwani had performed autopsies on members of the religious sect, including spiritual leader David Koresh. The Davidians died in the April 19, 1993, blaze that destroyed their compound near Waco.

Chris Gavras, Peerwani's spokesman, said yesterday afternoon that there may be some mitigating factors concerning reports that the morgue's cooler failed, but he declined to elaborate.

Peerwani did not return telephone calls to his office. His secretary, Linda Anderson, said he "has been advised not to make any further comments" in the wake of Thursday's appointment of a special counsel to investigate what happened at Mount Carmel on the last day of the siege.

He did, however, speak to reporters at the Waco Tribune-Herald yesterday.

Don Petty, who worked with Peerwani as a forensic photographer on the Davidian case, and Fort Worth pathologist Stephen Putthoff, who also worked on the Davidians' bodies, said the autopsies were conducted accurately and professionally.

"Dr. Peerwani did a superb job organizing the entire effort," said Putthoff, a deputy medical examiner for Tarrant County and chairman of the pathology department for the University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth.

If the cooler malfunctioned, Putthoff said, it would not have mattered because all of the autopsies had been completed and the forensic evidence collected.

But the lawyers suing the government say that when the badly burned corpses were liquefied from exposure to high temperatures, it prevented a second, independent examination to learn more about what -- and possibly who -- caused the Davidians' deaths.

Kirk Lyons, who is representing three Davidian survivors of the fire and relatives of 23 dead sect members, said he has been told that "somebody accidentally pulled the plug, and the bodies turned to soup."

"It just destroys any chance for anybody to come back and challenge what the government said happened," said Lyons of Black Mountain, N.C.

Petty said he believes that "approximately 40 or 50" unclaimed Davidian bodies were in the cooler when it failed.

The cooler, which is behind the morgue and is still being used, was given to the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office by the federal government to hold the bodies of the sect members, Petty said.

Peerwani told CNN in an interview this week that his office was not asked by the government to determine whether any of the Davidians were killed by federal agents.

"I don't think that was an issue at the time," he said.

Peerwani also said he was not asked by the government to determine the manner of the deaths -- homicide, suicide or accidental -- which is usually a routine procedure in autopsies.

"In this particular case, we were primarily focused on deciding the cause of death. We had no control over the information that was surrounding this compound's tragedy," the medical examiner told CNN.

Putthoff said the fiery end to the 51-day standoff between the religious sect and federal agents was an "extremely complex disaster."

"I think the hardest part for the pathologists ... was separating out and seeing the bodies of the children who were co-mingled with the adult female bodies," Putthoff said.

Putthoff said that most, if not all, of the Davidian bodies were terribly burned and damaged by the fire and shrapnel from explosions, making it extremely difficult for the team of pathologists at the Tarrant County morgue to examine them.

Houston lawyer Michael Caddell, who is representing the relatives of 55 dead Davidians, said the survivors wanted a re-examination because "we think the autopsies were by and large not done in the best manner possible."

Despite the damage done because of the cooler failure, authorities may still be able to learn more about the deaths of the Davidians by studying their bones, said Mary Manhein, professor of forensic pathology at Louisiana State University and deputy coroner of Baton Rouge Parish.

Bone marrow can harbor DNA samples for as long as 10 years, and a study of the bones can often solve the mysteries of a violent death, Manhein said.

But a better preserved body, including the existence of lung tissue and blood samples, could help determine whether any of the Davidians died from smoke inhalation or from poison caused by government tear gas, said Jay Siegel, professor of criminal justice and chemistry at Michigan State University.

"If they didn't find that out on the initial autopsy ... it would be much more crucial to have something preserved," said Siegel, a member of the American Academy of Forensic Science.

Bodies begin to decompose from the moment of death, but the speed with which they do so depends on the circumstances, Manhein said.

Decomposition is quicker at hotter temperatures and, even at room temperature, can cause a body to deteriorate beyond recognition within two to three days, Manhein said.

Corpses can be preserved if temperatures are kept under 40 degrees, she said.

Plaintiffs attorneys also have questions about the findings of Dr. Ronald Graser, the private pathologist hired by Riddle's family.

Graser's examination found that body parts disappeared from Riddle, whose remains were kept at Tarrant County Mortician Service, a private mortuary in southeast Fort Worth, court documents say.

During that time, the body of Riddle, who had been killed by a shot in the head, was kept in a "crash bag" and sealed in a metal container in a cooler, said Tom Ramsey, owner of the mortuary.

But when Graser examined the remains, he said part of the skull was missing, including the section where the bullet entered and exited, the court documents say.

Jack Douglas Jr., (817) 390-7700
jld@star-telegram.com

Karen Brooks, (817) 685-3806
kbrooks@star-telegram.com

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"Of course, the more simpler-minded on the board suck in all that swill as if it were absolute gospel"

Perhaps the Star Telegram is more to your liking.

Are you attepmting to imply to the readers and lurkers here on FR that Peerwani HIMSELF performed and FAKED all those autospy results -
- THAT is simplistic thinking friend ...

I especially like this excerpt from the report I previously cirted -
- it point out QUITE CLEARLY that the Davidians were indded responsible for setting the fires that resulted in their deaths:
III-2B. Clive Doyle
Mr. Doyle arrived at the hospital circa 1 pm on 4/19/93. He had first and second degree thermal burns. His hands were burned circumferentially. The burning appears to be uniform and sharply demarcated at the wrists. One note in the medical records indicates a possibility that the thermal burns on the palmar surfaces of the hands were deeper than the other thermal burns.
There was also some burning of the right ear. There were some first degree thermal burns scattered on the anterior/lateral neck and chin but these were not circumferential. No nasal soot or singed hair were identified. He was not short of breath at 1:42 pm and his oxygen saturation was 86%. Later assessment of his thermal burns indicated some full thickness thermal burns on the hands. The thermal burns were assessed as involving 6% of his body surface area (4% full thickness). Autografts were applied to the hands on April 21, 1993.
I have been advised by the OSC that Mr. Doyle was seen leaving the burning complex.
At that time, his hands were described as being in flames. The police laboratory detected the presence of an accelerant on his clothing, including on the sleeves of his jacket.
Conclusion:
The uniform diffuse burning of his hands and his hands being in flames is consistent with being caused by ignition of an accelerant that had been spilled or splashed onto the skin of the hands. Pushing against a burning door or wall does not typically cause this type of burning.
Work like this HARDLY ever appears in a rag like the Startlegram, simpleton ...

"Work like this HARDLY ever appears in a rag like the Startlegram, simpleton ..."

Look pottie-mouth, a poster asked if this is the same physician that performed the autopsies on the Waco victims, which it is. Let's put it another way, it certainly won't hurt the defense by having this guy's office do the autopsie, is that clear enough?

Yep, that is what Screaming Fist's post said. Just goes to prove what a useful Idiot Peerwani is.

Wouldn't this statement indicate that he did live for days.

Here's another in a string of bumps to that. I caught that apparent contradiction too. Has anyone checked Doc Peerwani's Green Card to see if it's still valid?

Can you imagine the embarrassment of having to drive around with a homeless guy stuck in your windshield like that? No wonder she decided to park her car in the garage...../sarcasm

It would be unbearable. Just having the smell of a homeless drunk in your car alone would be cause for social ostracization. She should sue somebody for emotional distress.

"That quote by Screaming Fist say's it all. Nincompoop is an understatement. One must also consider the source of that quote and info - - Carol A. Valentine's website ..." -
50 posted on 3/13/02 7:51 AM Pacific by _Jim

The full, correct quote which you convieniently left out, is as follows:

"One way to really destroy the evidence carried by the corpse is to let a nincompoop do the autopsy." -- Anonymous

Truer words have never been spoken.
The source of that quote matters not, it's true no matter who utters the words. Van-Gogh was a nut, but does that diminish his art?

Also, that quote was attributed to "anonymous", so why are you pegging it on Carol Valentine?

Hey Jim, just let a nincompoop attempt a major repair on your home, and see if you aren't regretful. Then, when I hear you complaining, I will consider the source.