Coloring the Data --- Greens get caught red-handed committing scientific fraud.

Wall Street Journal ^ | Mar 27, 2002 | Pete DuPont

[Iowa Granny]

Hey there, Gramps! We knew it all the time. Glad the WSJ is willing to help our cause.

[Grampa Dave]

You bet Granny, we did know it all along.

To the editors of the WSJ and their few conservative writers on the news side's credit. They were the first to nationally publish the words "Rural Cleansing!" to describe what the enviral nazis were trying to do to the Klamath Basin Farmers/Ranchers and workers last year in the Klamath Basin.

These editors know that if the Watermelon Enviral Nazis get their agendas accomplished, there will be no more capitalism in America and the rest of the world.

The Watermelons, Green on the Outside and Red inside is where most of the communists in American went as the USSR was crumbling. There, they and the rabid socialists in these enviral groups became the Enviral Nazis from Hell.

Now is the time for the rest of America to wake up to these Enviral Nazis from Hell and their true intentions of destroying America for their Druid Religion.

[Black Agnes]

bump

[Grampa Dave]

Thank you for your kind bump! Have a great 4th of July!

[Black Agnes]

Happy 4th for you too!!!!!

[KC Burke]

The setting of fires by these people is very much the trend in AZ. They do it to houses, new buildings and whole developments.

It is amazing that in all the fires, three of the four where I have heard they caught someone responsible have been federal/envirnmentalist workers. Three of four....simply disgusting.

[facedown]

ping

[Grampa Dave]

Arson fires are the terrorist tools of the enviralist and eco terrorists.

The ALFS/ELFS/ and the anarchists in Oregon burn everything that they don't like from businesses to trucks to suvs.

The worthless Enviral Governor of Oregon has provided sanctuary for these enviro terrorists and elevated them to a hero status. As a result of eco and enviral terrorism, the economy of the state of Oregon has tanked and will stay tanked until he and his enviral backers are out of power.

[Semper911]

A hearty bump to the top. Bravo to the Wall Street Journal. (...in spite of their new colored paper.)

[madfly]

Yes, that's why I posted it. Hopefully there will be an investigation and a HALT/MORATORIUM on all actions/lawsuits based on the credibility of the numbers being submitted by Environmental Orgz.

Sending lots of stuff to Sen. Jon Kyl and Rep. Jeff Flake. Would like to see a group of these census takers on a John Stossel special!

[aruanan]

Since 1960 world grain production has increased to 680 pounds per capita from 560

And this is in spite of a much larger world population than in 1960.

[Rightwing Conspiratr1]

In any case, the entire population of the world could fit in Texas, with each person enjoying 1,200 square feet of individual space.

Shhh! Isn't that one of the Greens' goals? The rest of the Earth would of course be off-limits as a shrine to Gaia. Well... not entirely off-limits as you'd require an super-eco-ranger druid id card to make pilgrimages to it.

[aruanan]

If you don't believe me, compare the emissions of a 2002 Honda Accord with a 1973 Buick Skylark. And remember that in 1973 Detroit engineers were saying you couldn't build cars that get the mileage the Accord does and reduce the emissions.

So, who are the real luddites?

The 2002 Honda Accord cannot be driven in CA without emission controls, even though it doesn't need any emission controls to satisfy CA's extreme requirements. Also, you're getting the cart before the horse. Water, air, and other things, such as workplace safety, were improving at a faster pace before the massive federal bureaucracy was put in place supposedly to ensure such things. Who are the real Luddites? The environmentalists.

[WindMinstrel]

Heh, you folks ever try saying, "There's no environmental problem" in mixed company? Goes over just a tiny bit better than a concealed weapon in Massachussets.

Too damned many people have been brainwashed over the last 30 years -- it's gonna take a long time to fix things.

[Paulus Invictus]

With so many thousands of acres of forests turning black in the huge forest fires we have going this summer, the miserable Greens should now be called BLACKS as they are responsible for the fires and we should never let them forget. Trash the Sierra Club daily, along with all the other BLACK organizations that are ruining the West! Sue them all too!

[RWG]

While you're running hard and fast, don't rely on the kind of nonsense that come from statements like "the entire population of the world could fit in Texas, with each person enjoying 1,200 square feet of individual space."In a similar way I've heard the head ditto say there is so much space in America that you can see when you fly over it. There are good reasons why the space is empty when you fly over it, climate extremes-deserts and glaciers, lack of fertile soil or water or enough of a growing season to produce anything with harvest value. The choicest spots go first and the empty spaces are either necessary as water sheds or are so difficult to make productive that the only value they have is as space.

[Regulator]

If your complaint is that the regulations are contradictory and capricious, I would agree. But having worked for a GM factory dealer in the 1970's, I can tell you that they are necessary, if you want to effect any change. GM would have never done anything on their own.

Partly that's their corporate culture, partly just a rational response to a market: you might remember all the fear over switching from leaded to unleaded gas. Initially it was a tough sell, largely because it was higher cost; but in the end it was a lot of hoohah over nothing. The vehicles work fine.

That's what I mean't about the Ludditism. You can talk till you're blue in the face, tell me that the market should do it, not the government, yadda yadda yadda. And you might be right, but it wasn't going to come out of Detroit. I worked with those fools and there ain't nothin' that they were ever going to do except at the brink of disaster. Detroit in the 1970's was so insular and thick headed you couldn't get anything through their brains - like how hard it was to push their junk.

The Japanese cars built then and since then are quite simply better designed and built. As an engineer, I can say that that is my somewhat informed opinion. As an owner, I can say that the 2000 Accord that sits in my driveway - the second Honda Accord I've owned, and the third Japanese car - is a phenomenonal piece of value. Somedays, I think the damn thing manufactures oil, since it never consumes any.

If you want to point me to a comparable Detroit designed and built vehicle, do so. But millions of people have tried and voted with their wallets, and the verdict is in. And Detroit didn't win.

So that's where the comment came from. Maybe things are different there these days (the designs are certainly a lot better, but the quality on the car side...welll...the trucks are a lot better), but that was only because they were dragged kicking and screaming to the party. I know. I was there. It's one of the reasons I left. Don't like arguing with slow people. "Luddites".

[aruanan]

But having worked for a GM factory dealer in the 1970's, I can tell you that they are necessary, if you want to effect any change. GM would have never done anything on their own.

Again, you're incorrect. The move to more fuel-efficient cars (well, tiny cars) was fueled by apparent (though not real) scarcity of gasoline. Because of this, certain automobile manufacturers were able to take advantage of a public perception and move product without any "help" from the federal government (as another example, the Japanese motorcycle market: these bikes were fuel-efficient, quiet, powerful, fast, and low-vibration; Harley Davidson complained that they were losing market share to unfair competition. Of course, this was simply untrue. They had merely a dwindling share of an overall growing market created by the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki) whose products appealed to those who didn't like riding on noisy, oil-leaking, kidney-pounding, technologically-backward relics)). Remember that the American car manufacturers were whining back in the 70's about Japanese "dumping". No, the Japanese (and earlier the Germans through Volkswagen) just capitalized on a social trend without any help from the U.S. federal government. And, once again, the federal regulations regarding fuel efficiency merely followed an existing market-driven trend. The bad thing was that they sclerosed the situation and made innovation more, not less, difficult by locking into law matters that should have been left to fluctuate according to custom, perception, and taste.

[Regulator]

That's interesting. Your hangup is the average mileage bit (CAFE, I assume). My comment was directed mainly toward the emissions regulations.

You say there wasn't really any gas shortage, and that cars would get as efficient as they need to be on their own based on the market. That's nice. Real or not, the corporate line when I was there was that you couldn't get there from here. Not "we don't need to, because there really isn't a shortage". But, "we can't do it". That's my comment on that point. They were wrong.

As far as emissions go, they want a level playing field. They sure as hell weren't going to go put convertors on the cars unless all manufacturers had to, because most people aren't going to pay for it, even if they think it's a good thing. But the fact is that people elected the people who wrote those laws, because they could see the pollution. You say I'm incorrect? Whatever. Keep readin' them libertarian theory books.

Fact is, the air in western cities looks better now than it did then, with more people. I have no idea how it is in Chicago, haven't been there in a few years. Does California need an emissions board? No. It needs 10 million fewer people. "Welcome to California, Now Go Home" - bumpersticker circa 1986. Didn't work out. The people who showed up were the dregs of the earth, just the kind of folks the Dims love. So they got to stay.

By the way, what's your experience in the auto/truck/oil biz? I've worked in all three. I saw all this crap first hand in the '70s. How 'bout you? Read it in Reason magazine one day?

Pull the troops out of the mid east and let the price go to whatever it will. Then we'll see how far "custom, perception and taste" go in fuel efficiency decisions. Personally I'm all for it. I was totally against the Gulf War. I couldn't care less what Saddam Hussein does to the House of Saud. I'm all for letting him do it. Then we can build vehicles that don't need their juice, which should be no real problem technically. And they can drink their goddamn oil. It isn't worth one American life. Unless of course you'd like to volunteer to die for access to "cheap" oil.

By the way, remember when Bush 41 told us it wasn't about oil? Nobody says that now. It's good to come clean. Cleanses the soul.

[blackie]

Stop the attacks by the wacko, extreme left-wing, enviro-nazis terrorist's on our Freedoms !!

Freedom Is Worth Fighting For !!

Molon Labe !!