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Need ammunition on tax debate
self

Posted on 04/16/2002 2:47:26 PM PDT by jdub

On another forum, someone is challenging conservatives who feel we are over taxed. This person says that no one can prove that they are paying over 40% of their income in taxes. I have pointed out that they are not considering all the forms that taxation carries, from sales tax, to alcohol taxes, gas taxes, FCC taxes, and a bunch of others plus things like the fact that when you purchase goods you are paying for the payroll taxes that the producer paid to their employees and things like that. Anyone have any other hidden or not-obvious examples of taxation that I can throw in?


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS:
All help appreciated.
1 posted on 04/16/2002 2:47:27 PM PDT by jdub
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To: jdub
This seems to me to be a no-brainer. Without even thinking about it, 30% right off the top for Uncle Sham (I'm talking about the entire amount you don't see, as if you were "self-employed") another 5% for state income tax, throw in a 5% state sales tax, excise tax on on gasoline, tolls, tires, and don't forget to figure that the price of everything is 30%+ higher than it ought to be because the price of what you buy includes all of those taxes on the mfr, distr, and retailer.
2 posted on 04/16/2002 2:57:27 PM PDT by agitator
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To: jdub
Read This Thread:

What Really Is Turning the Budget Surpluses into Deficits
The Heritage Foundation | January 30, 2002 | by Brian M. Riedl

Posted on 4/15/02 4:11 PM Central by vannrox

 

3 posted on 04/16/2002 2:59:17 PM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer
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To: jdub
Look at the cumlutative spending at all levels of goverment, The feds spend around 20% of GDP, arate and local goverment spends about another 20-25% of GDP (I remember Milton Freidman stating that goverment in the US consumes about 42% of GDP). It doesn't matter if the taxes are hidden as 'use taxes' or corporate taxes ect. they taxes are all passed on to us.

A significent amount of the cost of a carton of milk, car house is taxes. This doesn't even include the effects of non funded goverment mandates.

4 posted on 04/16/2002 3:07:09 PM PDT by Leto
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To: jdub
When a company declares a dividend, it has to declare an after-tax profit, which is taxed, to pay the dividend to you, which is taxed as part of your income, so that you can then buy some goods, which are taxed, and which have to cost extra so that vendor can pay salaries to its employees, which are taxed. If there were no government, the first company would show a higher profit, not having to pay extra for the taxes of its employees, nor the tax on the profit itself, so you would receive more money from them, and then you could buy more goods with it, which would be cheaper because they wouldn't be taxed, and the second company wouldn't have to pay income tax on its employees either. The ratio of how many goods you would get for the same production from company #1's dividend, represents the total costs of taxation TO YOU. I'd wager it's way more than 40%.
5 posted on 04/16/2002 3:16:41 PM PDT by coloradan
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To: Leto

Tax Day 2002
Neal Boortz
Monday, April 15, 2002

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/15/164706.shtml


Today is April 15. This is the day your taxes
are due for the year 2001. I sat down at the
computer yesterday morning and just started
hacking out some notes about Tax Day and the
present state of affairs in our country. Read
on as long as you like.

Most people don't know how much tax they pay.

Actually, this statement is becoming less and
less true as we go along. The one group out
there that really does know how much federal
income tax they pay is that segment of wage
earners who pay nothing. By design, this
segment is growing larger and larger every
single year.

I should revise this statement to read, "Most
people who actually do pay federal income taxes
have no idea how much they pay." If you don't
believe it, just try this little test. Approach
a friend or co-worker whom you actually believe
pays some federal income tax and ask them how
much they paid. You will most likely get one
of two responses.

For the majority of actual taxpayers, those
who are receiving refunds, the response will
be "I didn't have to pay anything! I'm getting
some back!" For taxpayers who had to write a
check today, they will quote the amount of that
check as the amount of tax they paid.

This is all by design. Politicians know that
if those who actually pay federal income taxes
had a keen awareness of just how much they
were paying, there would be an instantaneous
and serious tax revolt. To mask the amount of
taxes these wage earners pay, the politicians
have kept alive the system of withholding those
taxes from paychecks.

The money is gone before the wage earner even
gets a sniff of it. It's almost as if it was
never really theirs in the first place … so,
what's to miss?

In fact, most folks don't even know how much
they earn! Let alone how much tax they pay.

OK ... you've asked your co-worker how much
tax they had to pay in 2001, and they didn't
know. Now … ask them how much they make! Most
will tell you it's none of your business. Some
will respond, though, and their response will
begin with the words "I take home ... "

If you wanted to be particularly obnoxious at
this point - or if you fancy yourself to be a
radio talk show host - you could say, "I didn't
ask you how much you took home. I asked you how
much you made." Then … stand by for the blank stare.

This is how well this system of withholding
taxes has worked! The majority of wage earners
can't even tell you what they earned! Just
what they "took home." It's as if they viewed
their "take home" pay as their total earnings!
No wonder they don't think they paid any taxes
when they get that refund check from the IRS!

I'll tell you one group that DOES know how
much tax they paid. The self-employed! The
owners of small businesses - the businesses
that employ about 80 percent of the workers
in this country … they know. These are the
people who have to sit down four times a year
and write a check to the IRS for their quarterly
tax payments. You ask these people how much
they paid and they'll be able to tell you … to
the penny! By the way - these people are a
minority of the taxpayers, but they pay most
of the taxes.

Withholding was supposed to be a temporary
measure.

Up until World War II, taxpayers would write
one check to the federal government every
year. That check would be for the tax they
owed on their previous year's earnings. There
was none of this "I didn't have to pay anything,
I'm getting some back" nonsense. Everyone knew
just what he or she had to pay.

Along comes World War II and the government
needs cash to produce ships, airplanes and
arms. So ... how do you speed up the cash
flow from the income earners to the government?
Withholding! You get the employer to take the
tax money out of the employee's pay check
before the employee ever sees it.

Withholding was sold to the American wage
earners as a purely temporary measure. As
soon as the war was over, things would
return to normal and the wage earners would
get their entire checks, just as before the war.

In case you haven't checked, the war has been
over for about 58 years or so, but withholding
is still with us. And along with the age of
withholding came the age of "take-home pay"
and tax refunds, which brought us the "I didn't
have to pay anything, I'm getting some back"
taxpayer.

Woe be unto the employer who tries to finesse
the system.

Since the advent of tax withholding, some
employers have tried various payroll gimmicks
to make sure that their employees knew just
how much they were making and how much was
being taken out of their taxes. One such
gimmick was to issue the entire paycheck to
the employee in cash. The employee would
then be required to pay back to the employer
the amount of tax due the federal government,
as well as the Social Security taxes.
Inevitably, when the feds find about what
these employers are trying to do, they put
a quick end to it.

Bottom line - politicians know that continued
taxpayer ignorance is essential to their
continued vote-buying schemes.

Our founding fathers specifically avoided
an income tax.

Alexander Hamilton is largely credited with
framing those portions of our Constitution
that deal with taxes and federal revenue
raising. Hamilton was definitely not friendly
to the idea of an income tax, preferring
consumption taxes instead. Read the following
quotation from Hamilton:

"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles
of consumption that they contain in their own
nature a security against excess. If duties
are too high, they lessen the consumption; the
collection is eluded; and the product to the
Treasury is not so great as when they are
confined within proper and moderate bounds.
This forms a complete barrier against any
material oppression of the citizens of this
class, and is itself a natural limitation of
the power of imposing them."

You see the difference between income and
consumption taxes here, don't you? Under an
income tax the only way a citizen can
voluntarily reduce his tax load is to stop
producing and adding to his own wealth.
Politicians know that most people are
unlikely to take this step.

Under a consumption tax you can reduce your
tax load, and register your feelings that
taxes are too high, by simply reducing or
changing your consumption habits. You can do
this without halting or slowing your production
of wealth.

Income taxes take almost all of the power away
from the taxpayer and vest it in the politicians.
Your only weapon is to stop earning income.

We did just fine without an income tax for most
of our first 150 years.

That's about how long it took Hamilton's ideas
to be replaced with the ideas and philosophy
of Karl Marx on tax matters.

Karl Marx? Did I say Karl Marx? Wait a minute,
didn't he write "The Communist Manifesto" with
Frederick Engels? Yup, that Marx. He and Engles
wrote this guiding document for communism in 1847.

You can read "The Communist Manifesto" online.
It's long, but buried right there in the middle
you will find 10 things that need to be
accomplished in an industrialized country to
bring on a communist form of government. No. 2
is "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax."

Nobody can argue that this isn't exactly what
we have now. Any income tax that puts one-third
of the burden on the top 1 percent of income tax
earners and 96 percent of the burden on the top
50 percent fits every definition of heavily
progressive.

It took no time at all for this idea to catch
on in the U.S. The first income tax was levied
in 1862 to help finance the Civil War. A few
years after the war ended the tax was removed
and the federal government went back to a
consumption-based tax system.

In 1895 the Supreme Court ruled an income tax to
be unconstitutional. This little constitutional
problem was solved with a the 16th Amendment,
ratified in 1913. Enter the era of Marx and Engles'
income tax.

By the way, before we leave "The Communist
Manifesto" behind, you should know that No. 3
on the list by Marx and Engles was "Abolition
of all rights of inheritance." Please note how
hard leftist Democrats fight against the
elimination of the death tax.

Oh ... and you should also pay attention to
No. 12. Here you find "Free education for all
children in public schools." You do know why
this was an essential step for the formation
of a communist state, don't you? These aren't
"public" schools. They're government schools.
More accurately, they're government
indoctrination centers. The little children
needed to be indoctrinated into the miracle
of communism.

I'll bet five bucks to a donut that today in
government schools across the nation teachers
are praising our income tax system as a
marvelous means to redistribute income from
those who earn it (from each according to
ability) to those who are hungry and homeless
(to each according to needs).

And just how did we manage without an income
tax for most of those 150 years?

Simple. This was a time when our government
was generally operating within its constitutional
mandate.

Now, just what constitutional mandate would
that be? The one contained in the 10th Amendment
to the Constitution. It reads

The powers not delegated to the United States
by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to
the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people.

If you want to know just what specific powers
were delegated to the federal government, look
at Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.
Click here if you haven't read it in a while:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

Remember what Hamilton said. A consumption tax
is a limitation on the government's ability to
grow. Once the consumption tax, which was
essentially voluntary, was gone … once it was
replaced with an involuntary income tax … the
brakes were off. Today we have a federal government
that grows with the passage of every single year
… a government that consumes almost 25 percent of
all goods and services produced in the United States.

You haven't earned a penny for yourself in 2002 yet.*

As you are preparing your tax return to drop
off at the post office, you should remember that
you have not yet stopped working for the federal
government in 2002. Tax Freedom Day is the day
that you have earned enough money in 2002 to pay
your federal and state income tax burden. For
all Americans the average is April 27. In Alaska,
a state with low state taxes, Tax Freedom Day
arrived on April 8. We find the highest state
taxes in Connecticut, where Tax Freedom Day
arrives on May 14. For my friends in Georgia,
the day is April 24.

On the average, you work 80 days to pay the
cost of the Imperial Federal Government, and
another 37 days to pay the cost of state and
local governments. This number does not include
the taxes that are paid by businesses and
corporations and are hidden in the cost of
every single item you buy and service you
use. This tax is computed to be around 20
percent of the cost of these goods and services.

Maybe you would like to download and print
the entire report from The Tax Foundation
entitled "America Celebrates Tax Freedom
Day." Click on this link:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html

*If you happen to be in the lower 40 percent
of income earners in the U.S., Democrats have
essentially absolved you of all responsibility
for the payment of federal income taxes.
Remember to show your appreciation on Election
Day.

Remember … all taxes are collected at the
point of a gun.

When considering the operation of government
 and the antics of politicians, don't ever
forget that government has one unique asset
that you do not.

Government can use deadly force to accomplish
its goals. You cannot.

If you want to buy something and it doesn't
fit in your budget, you will have to either
borrow the funds or do something to earn some
extra money. If the politicians want to buy
something (votes, for instance), they have
the power to seize the money from you, with
or without your consent.

Do you think this "point of a gun" thing
is a little strong? Yeah … it's strong all
right, but it's also accurate. If you choose
not to pay your taxes, the government will
levy on your property. The next step will be
for the government to come seize your property
in order to sell it. If you choose to protect
your property, to prevent its seizure by
government, the guns come out. It's just
that simple.

The different ways to acquire wealth

You can get out there and earn it. If you
do, you are very likely to vote Republican
or Libertarian.

If you are government, you don't earn wealth.
You seize it.

If you are a Democratic voter, you wait for
the government to take that wealth it has
seized from the person who earned it, and
transfer it to you.

Bottom line … achievers know that income is
earned. Non-achieving leftists think that
income is distributed.

Soon a minority of wage earners will pay
all of the federal income taxes.

What is the most certain way, short of using
guns, to seize and maintain political power?
Easy. You take money from people whose votes
you do not need and give that money to the
people whose votes you do need. To rephrase
… you take money from those who are unlikely
to vote for you, and give that money to those
who are likely to vote for you.

Big-government leftists (Democrats) have
been working this game for decades - and
they are nearing complete success. The
latest figures we have are for 1999, but
those figures tell the tale. In 1999:

The top 1 percent of income earners earned
19 percent of the total income, but paid over
36 percent of the total income taxes.

The top 5 percent of income earners earned
34 percent of the income and paid 55.5
percent of the taxes.

The top 10 percent earned 44.9 percent of
the income, paid 66.5 percent of the income
taxes.

The top 25 percent earned 66.5 percent,
paid 83.5 percent.

Top 50 percent? Earned 86.3 percent, paid
96.0 percent.

And the bottom 50 percent … where you'll
find a preponderance of Democratic voters
… they earned 13.3 percent of the income
and paid only 4 percent of the income taxes.
The shift increases with every year. Every
time the IRS releases a new set of tax
statistics, you see that more and more of
the burden for the payment of federal
income tax is lifted from the majority of
wage earners and shifted to the minority
of wage earners who make the big bucks. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to know
where this is taking us - it's taking us
to a tax tyranny supported by the votes
of non-taxpayers.

Now … for those of you who don't believe a
thing I say (and that's a healthy attitude,
believe me), here's a link so you can study
these numbers for yourself.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html

Taxes are complicated.

The tax code contains tens of thousands of
pages of rules, law and regulations that no
person is capable of understanding. If you
call the IRS for help in filling out your
tax return, more often than not you will get
a wrong answer. This wrong answer can end up
costing you big bucks.

Remember - you are responsible for wrong
answers. The IRS is not.

When your grandparents filled out their
income tax returns, they had two pages of
directions to go by. When you fill yours
out, you have 122 pages of instructions to
follow. Filling out a tax return is now so
complicated that most people have to hire
someone to do it. You might as well consider
the money that you pay to your tax preparer
as just more income taxes.

Now ... just what is the reason that taxes
are so complicated? It's because politicians
use the tax code to hand out favors to people
they like, to punish people they don't like,
and to maneuver people who vote for them
into lower tax brackets while maneuvering
people who won't vote for them into higher
tax brackets.

In addition, politicians also use the tax
code to encourage behavior they deem to be
good and to discourage behavior they deem
to be bad. Nice system, huh?

Feel better now?

Remember …

You've all heard, I'm sure, that you get
more of the behavior you reward, and less
of the behavior you punish. So, why punish
achievement and reward failure? Because
those who desire big government fear
achievement and embrace failure.

NOW … GO OUT THERE AND GET THAT ENVELOPE
IN THE MAIL TO THE IRS!
And whatever you do … forget all about
this day when Election Day rolls around
in November.

6 posted on 04/16/2002 3:18:07 PM PDT by ricer1
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To: jdub
It's not a tax, but think of all the inefficencies cuased by government. Paperwork, legal costs, unfunded mandates, etc. If you want to rent a house, you have to make it "handicapped accesable". If you run a resturant, you have to have huge bathrooms that only have room for one toilet. The local McDonald's had to tear down it's entire building and rebuild in order to fit those ridiculus bathrooms.

Then there are the EPA nightmares -- how much has been spent on asbestos cleanups by businesses and institutions?

And, there is the litigation 'tax', where the government officials (mostly lawyers) make sure that you pay for their friends RVs, vacations, and houses. Over half of every kind of insurance you pay winds up in the pockets of lawyers. About a third of the cost of anything you buy goes toward product insurance. All because government is designed to take you money. That's what they do.

Lawyers -- think about how much they get paid, and think about how many of them there are, and think about how little they produce. They are running a scam with their friends in government office. Do yourself a favor -- don't vote for ANY lawyers.

Argggghhhhh!

7 posted on 04/16/2002 3:25:14 PM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: Born to Conserve
Seriously amazing stuff here:

http://www.taxableincome.net/

http://www.arrowplastics.com/withholding_statement.htm

Read this info including the disclaimers (cover ass -- yours and theirs)

8 posted on 04/16/2002 3:33:23 PM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: Born to Conserve
-http://www.taxableincome.net/--

-http://www.arrowplastics.com/withholding_statement.htm--

9 posted on 04/16/2002 3:39:09 PM PDT by backhoe
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To: jdub
If you are employed, your employer pays an amount for Social Security equal to the employees payment. Many people are not aware of this tax.

When I must pay to prove to the government that I am not a criminal in order to purchase a firearm, that is a tax which is being exacted to perform a function which is supposed to benefit the public and which obviously does not benefit me in the slightest ( I already know that I am not a criminal). That is a tax.

The requirement that firearms be shipped only to and from FFLs constitutes a presumed public safeguard for which the firearm owner is forced to pay. That is a tax.

The inflated value of an automatic rifle, whose manufacture has been outlawed by unConstitutional laws, is a tax which benefitted the original owner at the expense of later purchasers. That is a tax.

The additional cost of a worthless trigger lock which is required with any purchase of a handgun in Kalifornia is a tax.

10 posted on 04/16/2002 5:18:49 PM PDT by William Tell
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