The 14th amendment unconstitutional?

The League of the South | Leander H. Perez

[inquest]

If someone gripes on the 13th and 14th amendments, it says something about their character to me....

Not that you're prejudiced or anything...

[WhiskeyPapa]

Are you saying that for some reason Texas v. White should not be applied to the issue of this thread, or that it does not say what I think it does?

I think you are exactly right.

The issues brought up in Texas v. White are why the so-called seceded states never dared take their position before the courts in 1860-61.

Walt

[4CJ]

Technically no. Since the states were allegedly out of the union they had to ratify the 13th to be readmitted (unconstitutional itself -see below), even though Lincoln killed 620,000 Americans to destroy their right to "resume the powers of self-government". Makes sense, right? Technically a state has to ratify the Constitution, and then vote on outstanding amendments - Nebraska ratified the 14th on 15 Jun 1867, after ratifying the Constitution on 1 Mar 1867 - which was outstanding (proposed on 13 Jun 1866) at the time of her statehood.

Even with the unconstitutional removal of southern congressmen, it was still defeated, and in 1868 the Supreme Court was willing to hear the case. The federal congress then passed ex post facto (unconstitutional)legislation under the guise of Article III, Section 2 (“such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make”) removing the appellate juridiction of the court.

[WhiskeyPapa]

OK, let's break it down further. You said, "They thought they were out of the Union." Well, were they or weren't they, in your view?

No state can legally get out of the Union except by the amendment process in the Constitution.

I don't think the Congress should have to seat traitors either. And that is what all the senators and congressmen who resigned their seats and went south were.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

It is not inconsistent to say both (1) that courts should have held that states have the legal right to secede, and (2) that, under the law as our courts have decided it, states do not have the right to secede and are not extinguished as entities by an attempt at secession. As a matter of fact, I believe both of those propositions myself.

The courts should never held that unilateral state secession was legal based on U.S. law and case law.

Walt

[inquest]

I don't think the Congress should have to seat traitors either.

That's fine if you want to think that, but the only problem is, your personal preferences are irrelevant. The Constitution says that Congress shall be composed of senators and representatives from each state in the union. People's personal opinions of those senators and representatives are not solicited.

[4CJ]

I'm not holding a grudge against their descendants - they are not guilty of the actions of their ancestors, but that does not mitigate the guilt of their ancestor either. The continued attacks on our heritage is made by their descendants, and that will be defended.

[WhiskeyPapa]

The Constitution says that Congress shall be composed of senators and representatives from each state in the union. People's personal opinions of those senators and representatives are not solicited.

The loyal members of Congress didn't want to seat traitors either.

Walt

[inquest]

No state can legally get out of the Union except by the amendment process in the Constitution.

And by the way, just as a technical point, an amendment it not required. A treaty would suffice.

[inquest]

The loyal members of Congress didn't want to seat traitors either.

Their opinions were irrelevant, too.

[WhiskeyPapa]

No state can legally get out of the Union except by the amendment process in the Constitution.

And by the way, just as a technical point, an amendment it not required. A treaty would suffice.

The Constitution forbids the states from entering treaties.

Walt

[WhiskeyPapa]

The loyal members of Congress didn't want to seat traitors either.

Their opinions were irrelevant, too.

Obviously not. They got the 14th amendment passed.

Walt

[inquest]

The Constitution forbids the states from entering treaties.

Oops. Good point.

[WhiskeyPapa]

The Constitution forbids the states from entering treaties.

Oops. Good point.

Wow, I thought for sure you'd say that the Constitution didn't apply to states that had seceded. :)

Stainless's position is that:

A) states can leave the Union whenever they feel like it and:

B) reassume the powers they threw down whenever it suits them.

Walt

[pepsionice]

Probably the greatest lesson of the Civil War is that Democracy really doesn't exist in the real world....its simply an idea that comes and goes. Obviously, democracy had nothing to do with the 14th amendment. Democracy probably will disappear eventually when we all realize its simply a joke.

[Fish out of Water]

Thanks for your insight.

[aristeides]

I am mystified by your answer. You appear to be saying that you approve of Texas v. White. Why does that not mean that the Southern congressional representatives had to be seated?

[4CJ]

And that is what all the senators and congressmen who resigned their seats and went south were.

Treason - Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
18 USC 2381.

The Confederates had renounced the US citizenship, therefore do not owe allgiance to the union, and therefore cannot be guilty of treason - a position on non-allegiance that George Washington also maintained. Your position is readily disproven based upon the facts and the "record".

[stainlessbanner]

Chief Justice Chase opinion in Texas v. White:

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into a indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The Act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the Union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States. "

This decision upholds Article V (US Constitution): "that no State, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."

Now it is feasible that the states could forfeit their right to be representated and vote on legislation, but the 1866 resolutions by those states not represented do to suggest this. The resolutions state the 11 states' elected representatives were denied by Congress.