Rome vs. Carthage: The Day the World Trembled

Military History Magazine ^ | June 2002 | Lee Levin

[robowombat]

Aside from sheer integral interest the question here is does the study of the past provide any utility to unserstanding the present. Arguement by analogy is dubious in the study of history. The best that can be said, seems to me, is that remembering how deadly serious past collisions between different cultures have been may at least warn us of what sort of struggle we are now in. Comments?

[Jay W]

bump to the top for later reading!

[KellyAdmirer]

Very interesting reading, thanks for posting it. Hasdrubal's biggest mistake was to retreat without adequately scouting out his line of retreat first. He also should have sent separate messengers to Hannibal by different routes. From such small things are major battles won and lost.

[Bedford Forrest]

"On high ground on his left he posted the Gauls. They were useless, but the Romans could not know that."

Some things never change. Good post.

[eastsider]

In all their victories over the Romans, both Hannibal and Hasdrubal had been scrupulous about burying fallen Roman consuls and generals with full military honors. The Romans, however, cut off Hasdrubal’s head in the true spirit of brutality that had become virulent in the Roman character. They marched southward against Hannibal, who, uncharacteristically, had remained passive in front of Nero’s screening army. The first knowledge Hannibal had of Hasdrubal’s defeat was when Nero ordered Hasdrubal’s head thrown into his brother’s camp.

Brutally effective psy-ops.

[Icthus]

Good article......thanks.

[rdb3]

B² (Bumped and Bookmarked)

[Tokhtamish]

Very interesting reading, thanks for posting it. Hasdrubal's biggest mistake was to retreat without adequately scouting out his line of retreat first. He also should have sent separate messengers to Hannibal by different routes. From such small things are major battles won and lost.

Hasdrubal doubtless assumed, perhaps sensibly that sensible Roman consuls would not go chasing after him with most of the Roman army leaving Hannibal uncovered.

What is interesting about the rise of Rome isn't it representing the triumph of a series of brilliant leaders, but the defeat of a series of brilliant enemies. Pyrrhus, Hannibal, Jugurtha, Antiochus the Great, Mithridates.

[Savage Beast]

"Carthage, on the other hand, treated its conquered African provinces like cash cows to be milked dry. "

Always a bad idea.

"It saw no reason to shed the blood of its sons in combat when there were men who, for a fee, would do their fighting for them."

Another bad idea.

[F-117A]

Thank you for the excellent post!

[neutrino]

Very interesting post. But I cannot help wondering whether the US is not, to some extent, placing itself in the role of Carthage. We have a volunteer army that emphasizes quality over quantity. Afghanistan is an interesting case...very few troops are being used. Our view of casualties seems similar to that of Carthage.

And if we're Carthage, who might Rome be? China, perhaps?

[Fish out of Water]

*Index Bump

[HeadOn]

Great observations. I was made aware of an excellent book on one of these posts - "Carnage and Culture", which gives many examples to prove one main point: The West has defeated armies throughout history and basically conquered the world, because free men fighting to preserve their way of life have far more at stake, and are much more resourceful than royal subjects or hired soldiers.

Nero here is a perfect example - an independent thinker breaking serious rules TWICE in order to ensure victory.

[Liberty Tree Surgeon]

Nukes destroy the whole picture. A nuclear power can only be destroyed from within, since a direct attack would generate an overwhelming response, even if we had to use nukes on our own beaches to push off an invader. Since a few years after WWII, when we did not have enough of a stockpile to be a deterent, the US has not faced any but mutual destruction.

Now, India and Pakistan, having only limited nuclear options, could decide the loss of a percentage of their vast populations (India most of all) is a price worth paying to defeat a 50-year rival.

LTS

[livius]

Plus ça change... A wonderful and clear summary of a very complicated situation/battle. Thanks for posting.

Nero decided to treat the intercepted letters as genuine. But, possessed of this vital knowledge, and assuming it to be true, what to do with it?

I think we're at this point. Remember this: Cartago delenda est.

[Savage Beast]

I found this very interesting, Wombat. I have never before studied much about the Punic Wars, and I was curious. --SB

[Prodigal Son]

Good post!

[SunkenCiv]

A Blast from the Past, thanks to the "Rome" keyword.

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[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Excellent!

[Larry Lucido]

Bump