New book says Christians suffered most

The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

[BenF]

When you say "by Christians", do you mean by anyone who called himself a Christian regardless of his motive, or people who killed because it was their honest interpretation of the Bible that God wanted them as Christians to kill?

Is there a real difference that we are aware of? In both cases, it is the individual who decides.

As I mentioned to several other posters, Muslims will decry violence committed by other Muslims - if that violence is perceived as "unpopular" in today's PC culture. That doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned. So if we are true to that standard, then claiming the Christians who committed violence weren't acting "in the spirit of Christianity" doesn't make it either.

Sorry if you disagree.

[sheltonmac]

You know, this thread is not supposed to be a debate about what violent acts may or may not have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity. It is obvious that you have absolutely no idea what the definition of a true Christian is and seem to have some kind of axe to grind.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

"The modern left is not and never was interested in "human dignity" or civil rights. It's reason for being is to find justification for the rejection of God and Christ."

You're quite right. And, should the modern left triumph in this country again - in full power - we will see persecution of Christians here just as in any totalitarian country in the past or present.

Just one more reason to understand clearly that Today's LEFTISTS - who ADMIRE STALIN - led by Hitlery Clinton herself - ARE ALLIED WITH THE ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS.

Both groups, in the end, want Christians (and Jews) DEAD!

Why? Because Christians and Jews are a testimony to the God they have rejected and whom they want to "destroy" out of the earth.

People who deny the anti-God agenda of the modern left are totally blind.

[JMJ333]

Does this mean the rest were "uncondemned"? I have a feeling we must agree to disagree on this one. The histories I've read indicate that the Crusaders slaughtered hundreds of Jews.

We have a right to defend ourselves against moslems just as much as the Jews do. You act like we were the enemy in the crusades. I find your attitude toward us disheartening.

As for whitewashing, you didn't read the article. It did mention the Jews, but you seem more concerned in your condemnation of us than seeing the truth. Out of 100,000 people put on trial it is a documented fact that 2,000 were put to death and it was for treason, not for being religious reasons. I thought the article was very balanced. Mrs. Carroll is an honest Catholic.

I'm through debating you because I am not going to continue to defend myself against ludicrous uniformed accusations.

[JMJ333]

Thanks.

[Tribune7]

It's worth remembering the attempt by the Clintons in circa '93 or '94 to declare religious symbols in the workplace or discussions about religion in the workplace to be a form of harassment.

[redhead]

"Some occured, of course, during the Protestant revolt, but that is nothing compared to the reality of the past 100 years."

I've noticed that very little is ever said of the persecution of Catholics in England during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I and Oliver Cromwell, when it was a capital offense to be a priest, and torture was common.

[exmarine]

An indulgence is is a removal of all or some of the punishment due to already forgiven sin because of the performance of a good deed or the saying of a prayer.

This doesn't make sense. If the sin is "already forgiven," there can be no punishment to remove! That's the very definition of forgiveness. The idea of What you have done here is put a "spin" on it in order to defend this evil and corrupt practice. And you say nothing about the exchange of MONEY(!) for these indulgences. In Luther's day, they were sold for money!! Peter said, "and your money perish with you" to the man who would purchase his way to heaven.

Furthermore, if "good deeds" could gain forgiveness, then there would be no need for Jesus Christ to die on that cross. It was the ONLY WAY! If there was another way, do you think God would have sent His Son? His death was the ONLY WAY that God could wipe away sin. It is blasphemous to suggest even remotely that there is any other way.

[JMJ333]

I understand quite well that Protestants don't believe in purgatory. I do, because I believe that we go through a cleansing process before entering heaven. So, when I say the ommitance of punishment for already forgiven sin, I am saying it in context of purgatory. Regards.

[JMJ333]

Good queen Bess wasn't really good at all, was she? ;)

She should have gotten the title "bloody" instead of Mary Queen of Scots.

[redhead]

"Are you Christians out there ready to give it all up for Christ? It's a question we all need to ask ourselves."

Well, most of us don't want to HAVE to give it all up, but if one is a true BELIEVER, it's probable that they would. The martyrs of Rome had no problem dying for their faith. It was simply what was done. Christians (and Jews) have died willingly for their faith all down through the ages.

The problem with this kind of martyrdom is that it sometimes sets up a cognitive dissonance in the persecutors and observers. To them, who don't believe (regardless of their nominal "Christianity," in such cases) the DEATH OF LIFE is the ultimate end.

For a believing Christian or Jew, death is just a door one passes through to the REAL life. Now: If there is NOTHING on the other side of death, none of these martyrs knew anything different once they were dead. BUT if there IS eternal life on the other side...

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

"It's worth remembering the attempt by the Clintons in circa '93 or '94 to declare religious symbols in the workplace or discussions about religion in the workplace to be a form of harassment."

Yes, that's true. Also, the Civil Liberties Union, that flagship of the Left, has done more to eliminate "God" from our schools, our workplaces, and our communities than any other institution.

Yet, where is it at UNC-Chapel Hill - where a reading of passages from the Quoran are required this summer for all incoming freshmen and other new students???

[BenF]

We have a right to defend ourselves against moslems just as much as the Jews do. You act like we were the enemy in the crusades. I find your attitude toward us disheartening.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But, you are correct. As far as the Jews were concerned, the Crusades were not beneficial.

As for whitewashing, you didn't read the article.

Yes, I did.

It did mention the Jews, but you seem more concerned in your condemnation of us than seeing the truth. Out of 100,000 people put on trial it is a documented fact that 2,000 were put to death and it was for treason, not for being religious reasons. I thought the article was very balanced. Mrs. Carroll is an honest Catholic.

Sorry you feel that we cannot disagree and that I must accept Mrs. Carroll's version of events.

I'm through debating you because I am not going to continue to defend myself against ludicrous uniformed accusations.

You are not defending yourself but these beliefs. Denegrating my position does not help yours.

Have a nice day.

[BenF]

It is obvious that you have absolutely no idea what the definition of a true Christian is

Actually, I think I have a very good idea of what a true Christian is. But, you're correct in saying that subject is not the topic of this thread. Accordingly, I will withdraw.

[LarryLied]

There is no reason for the writer of this article to have mentioned the Holocaust.

[Tuor]

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

I sometimes wonder if people don't take pride in the fact that something terrible happened to them.

If the statistics of one are meaningless, then what of the statistics of the other? Hmm?

The number of deaths centuries ago may not be especially relevant today, but as the deaths become more recent, they become more significant. They should not be downplayed anymore than the numbers of Jews killed should be downplayed.

IMO, WWII was probably the most significant event in the past century, not the Holocaust, though that was a terrible thing as well.

Tuor

[Tuor]

It does not lessen the importance of the Shoah at all....it shows that the devil was and still is attacking ALL of GOD's TRUE BELIVERS....Christians and JEWS!!

And I hope no one ever forgets this. The Devil really does exist, and he hates us, even those who don't believe in God; he hates us all.

Also, think on this: it is better to die while holding to your faith than to live and have your soul slowly crushed under the unending grind and soulessness that our culture *can* produce, and is producing more frequently these days.

Better physically dead than spiritually lost, IMO.

Tuor

[Antoninus]

Council of Clermont decreed that "whoever, out of pure devotion and not for the purpose of gaining honor or money, shall go to Jerusalem to liberate the Church of God, let that journey be counted in lieu of all penance." St. Bernard, the preacher of the Second Crusade (1146): "Receive the sign of the Cross, and thou shalt likewise obtain the indulgence of all thou hast confessed with a contrite heart."

If you think these statements equal "automatically go to heaven" all I can say is that you are clueless with regard to Catholic teaching. Penance and indulgences are offered against sins PREVIOUSLY confessed. This in no way guarantees that one will not get a one-way ticket to Hades as a result of one's subsequent wicked actions.

Nice try, though.

[Antoninus]

Orthodox Christians have been defending themselves against Islam since Heraclius. The Catholics were late comers to the struggle and sometimes did the struggle harm.

Uh, if you asked Heraclius what Chuch he belonged to, would he respond "the Orthodox Church?" You do know that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches were one prior to the schism of 1054 AD, right?

[Spar]

Catholic is a Greek word.