New book says Christians suffered most

The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

[Spar]

I wasn't writting a doctorial paper when I wrote what I wrote. What I wrote is correct in fact and in spirit if not put in the correct Latin theological wording.

[sheltonmac]

"There is no reason for the writer of this article to have mentioned the Holocaust."

I agree. I also think it's disappointing that the Holocaust has become THE standard by which all other atrocities must be judged.

[exmarine]

I understand quite well that Protestants don't believe in purgatory. I do, because I believe that we go through a cleansing process before entering heaven. So, when I say the ommitance of punishment for already forgiven sin, I am saying it in context of purgatory. Regards.

Pergatory is not biblical and militates against the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. If Christ's death is sufficient - AND IT IS! - then pergatory is a falsehood and a lie. Either Christ's FINISHED WORK on the corss and his atoning death is sufficient or it isn't...which is it? If you believe in pergatory you cannot also believe in the sufficiency of the atonement without falling into hopeless self-contradiction. Show me pergatory in the bible. If it was real and important don't you think it would at least be mentioned?

[exmarine]

Well, most of us don't want to HAVE to give it all up, but if one is a true BELIEVER, it's probable that they would. The martyrs of Rome had no problem dying for their faith. It was simply what was done. Christians (and Jews) have died willingly for their faith all down through the ages.

American Christians do not resemble roman Christians. American Christians are affluent, Roman christians were mostly dirt poor (but not in spirit!). But you are right - the TRUE believers would lay it all on the line, I only question the devotion of most Americans who call themselves Christians. Money is king here for most people.

[exmarine]

...I believe that we go through a cleansing process before entering heaven...

I think you should crack your bible to the book of Hebrews - The blood of Christ cleanses beleivers FROM ALL SIN. Period. There is no more cleansing to be done once you are white as snow in Christ.

[LarryLied]

I remember the A-Bomb drills in elementary school. That is the history I would like to know about. Who our enemy was and what they were up to. Lots of new information came out with the fall of the Berlin Wall but you have to search to find it. History on TV is Nazi Germany. Over and over. Rarely a mention of the gulags, of Christians killed. But anyday of the week, sometime during the day, a cable channel will tell us about Nazi atrocities. AND THERE ARE NO NAZIS IN POWER TODAY. But there are murdering socialists in power. There are former Soviet concentration camps commandants running loose. Nobody is making a stink about bringing them to justice. Poland and Lithuania get called names when they try.

[George W. Bush]

[some flack writes]: "The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Here we have the crux of the matter, protecting the inanely tedious sacred cow of the Jewish Holocaust.

Hate to tell 'em this but it wasn't the most important event in the 20th century. It wasn't even close. I still think the "six million" was somewhat inflated. Maybe four to five million is closer.

The Holocaust is just irrelevant to most people now, especially Gentile young people, and that's what has the Holocaust industry scared.

[JMJ333]

With all do respect--and I do appreciate your graciousness on this thread--my beliefs stem from the church founded by Christ himself, and the concept of purgatory has been around a lot longer than any protestant denomination. I respect your beliefs, but I do not share them. And I am done on this thread. Regards and best to you.

[George W. Bush]

JMJ: ...my beliefs stem from the church founded by Christ himself...

No. Your ideas are merely the religious ideas of men and some self-serving traditions that eventually developed because the Bishop of Rome became so powerful over the centuries. You believe in the traditions of men. We believe in the Word of God.

...and the concept of purgatory has been around a lot longer than any protestant denomination.

The mythical purgatory was invented by Origen. He also cut off his testes for religious reasons. Not exactly a strong testimony to the soundness of his thinking. Although Origen has always been rightfully suspected of devious theology and strange readings, he still holds a place in the history of the Roman chruch, largely because to finally repudiate him would cast serious doubts upon his invention of Purgatory.

But Purgatory, combined with indulgences, was a fantastic fundraising machine for the Roman hierarchy for many centuries. Slick marketing, a steady revenue stream and far more profitable than licensing monks to practice sodomy in the summer months.

Hey, ex-, always love to read your stuff...

[JMJ333]

I love how you come on the thread to sneer your disdain for me and my religion. You're one of those people who like to ram your beliefs down the throats of others revelling in your haughty "correctnees." I'm sure you'll convert many with that charming attitude. Regards.

[LarryLied]

Hate to tell 'em this but it wasn't the most important event in the 20th century.

The Bolshevik Revolution was. The left finally had the opportunity to do what they had dreamed of doing for decades. And they did it with a vengeance. We feel the effects today.

[George W. Bush]

I love how you come on the thread to sneer your disdain for me and my religion.

Well, glad to be of service. I will remark in passing that I discussed the church of Rome. I don't know you and don't think I insulted you, regardless of your little claim.

I notice that you didn't bother to dispute my historical representation. It seems that you are at least reasonably well-informed about the rather sordid history of your religious institution.

Love the iconography though. A classic Roman distraction technique.

[George W. Bush]

Agreed.

I'd somehow like to broaden it to something more general to encompass the entire international Left instead of only the Bolshevik revolution but, if we narrow it to just one single event, that one can fairly be represented as the most tragic in many centuries.

[LarryLied]

Correct, it was more than that even (Bela Kun in Hungary and the commies in Germany and in China and in....everwhere. Even here). Getting back to the Church. I'm as far theologically as one can be from Catholicism (I'm Unitarian). But the Church does a heck of a lot of good. There is no international organization of its size which is standing up to the likes of George Soros, Maurice Strong, Ted Turner, the UN and hundreds of socialist NGOs. The current Pope helped bring down the evil empire. Pope Leo XIII warned where socialist were going 35 years before Lenin and Trotsky gained power and started killing.

I much prefer people be involved in their church than look to the state for all answers. Everyone who desires liberty loses if the Catholic church is weakened.

[George W. Bush]

But the Church does a heck of a lot of good. There is no international organization of its size which is standing up to the likes of George Soros, Maurice Strong, Ted Turner, the UN and hundreds of socialist NGOs.

Absolutely. On those issues, like the pro-life issue, I support the stance of the Roman church. Without their sheer numbers, we would be overrun. I've often written here at FR of my admiration for the aggressive stance of the bishops in my own state. They are considerably more conservative than the rest of the American hierarchy.

I much prefer people be involved in their church than look to the state for all answers. Everyone who desires liberty loses if the Catholic church is weakened.

I agree with the first sentence, very reminiscent of Eisenhower's remarks to the same effect. But, historically, I would take issue with the second statement from both a secular and religious viewpoint. Nevertheless, the church of Rome has made a few important contributions to modern liberty, sometimes inadvertently. Their current effort in battling the social engineering plans of the global socialists at the U.N. is one that I applaud and support. I often pass along the alerts of the Vatican mission to the U.N. to my representatives and within my own personal circle.

[LarryLied]

Those the Church is fighting must have known for decades the extent of the problem in the Church. I wonder how much they encouraged it. When a priest is a part owner in a gay resort, you know the entire gay community knows about it.

[Michael2001]

What killing Christians is a bad thing? (sarcasm)

Christians better wake up soon.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You're one of those people who like to ram your beliefs down the throats of others revelling in your haughty "correctnees."

GWB... a Baptist?? "Forcing" his beliefs on others??

As it happens, the roster of heroic martyrs tortured and slaughtered for their beliefs by the ruthless fire and stake of Baptist Inquisitors and their grim-faced Armies of steel-clad Baptist Crusaders is, um...

....not a terribly long list. ;-)