Southern Pastor Works to Deliver His Flock From Credit-Card Debt

The Wall Street Journal ^ | Wednesday, June 12, 2002 | ELLEN GRAHAM

[TroutStalker]

NORFOLK, Va. -- Carl and Janice Beaver went to church one night recently owing $10,500 on a slew of credit cards. When they walked out two hours later, they were debt-free.

Now all they owe is gratitude to their brethren at Mount Carmel Baptist Church. About once a month the church holds a "debt liquidation revival," a foot-stomping, hand-clapping outpouring of music and financial generosity aimed at lifting members out of credit-card debt. How generous? The Beavers are the 56th family to have been "delivered" from debt since the revivals began about a year ago.

[Judith Anne]

OUTSTANDING! Great post!

[TroutStalker]

"you can't serve your Master and MasterCard at the same time."

[DB]

That's pretty cool.

Being a slave to credit card dept is awful. I wish it upon no one.

[Judith Anne]

Yep! The pastor has it right. ;-D

[anniegetyourgun]

It's a wonderful display of grace - one to another, and from the hand of God.

Now, if His people would seek His face more and His hand less.....

Now, if pastors across the country would strike at the root of all that enslaves.....

[Skooz]

If they extend this to student loan debt, I will move to "a vaguely seedy section of downtown Norfolk."

[KentuckyWoman]

Outstanding post!! It's nice to see some good news for a change. I just sent this to Dave Ramsey who does a radio show called "the Money Game". This is EXACTLY what he teaches all the time!

[What Is Ain't]

Inspiring post. Hope the newly debt free stick with it.

[Incorrigible]

Gee.  Why doesn't he just ask the government like us?

[twigs]

Credit card debt IS an evil. But why should other people pay for someone else's sin? I would think that the discipline required to get out of debt would go a long way toward teaching people to STAY out of debt. The people of this congregation are not wealthy. I just don't understand why some should pay for the others. Sounds like they are setting up a mentality that if people spend unwisely, someone else will bail them out. Next time it may be Uncle Sam.

[AppyPappy]

My spidey senses are tingling

[TroutStalker]

Those newly freed from debt must attend a seminar on staying solvent. Then the pastor meets with them periodically to see where they stand. So far, he says, there have been no backsliders. "Once you get that weight off your shoulders, you never want to go back," says Mr. Beaver.

This is a faith-based program with no government involved. The people participate voluntarily in a program that helps them get debt relief that would be almost impossible at 20% interest rates. I would compare it to the Amish model of lending to community members at no interest, in the best interests of the community.

[TroutStalker]

???

[Contra]

I'm sure this will solve all of their problems and they will never get into that kind of debt trouble ever again.

[AppyPappy]

It sounds fishy

[twigs]

It still sounds to me like someone else is paying off another person's foolishness. I understand the idea behind this. However, I still don't think it's a good idea. My step-son is several thousand dollars in debt and I wouldn't pay him out of it if I was a millionaire. He needs to learn that discipline for himself. Sounds to me like good intentions run awry.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Interesting how car loans are seen as appropriate, even though unlike houses, cars are worth only a tiny fraction of their purchase price by the time they're paid off. This seems to be a widespread view in the U.S., even among people who obviously can't afford it. Financing is generally only available on cars which are 5 years old or less, and when such a car is financed, the annual cost of the collision insurance required by the lender is often as much or more than the cash price of an older but perfectly functional car.

I've paid cash for all the cars I've ever owned (generally about 8 years old at the time of purchase), and have never carried collision insurance. Over an adult lifetime, the savings in interest and insurance premiums, plus the compounded interest on those savings when they are invested instead of spent, adds up to well over a million dollars. If a million dollars missing from your retirement savings won't cramp your style, then by all means go ahead and buy a car on credit, but otherwise you've got to be nuts to do it.

[stainlessbanner]

Excellent Post! There is nothing that makes me happier than seeing people delivered from a mountain of debt. I dropped the remainder of my MBNA balance to those crooks today - what a joyous day! Credit card companies really are the devil at work.

TS - your comment reminds me of that old song "You Gotta Serve Somebody"...Well, I no longer serve the cc companies, just my Lord. Thanks for sharing this article - I would love to visit this church.

[stainlessbanner]

New church for you...

[billbears]

LOL. What are you trying to say? No, really great post and great idea. At first read, I admit I was a bit skeptical thinking it was a fleecing of the congregation. I've seen that so much and know a few folks that are involved in churches like that. But this guy is doing exactly what the Bible preaches. You can't serve the world and God at the same time. I'm trying to get myself out of debt and am almost there. Will be a wonderful day when it occurs.

[VOA]

Sounds like Alan Bond (the guy who used to appear on Wall Street Week with Louis Rukyser)
could use a bit of this help...
He just got convicted on 6 felonies yesterday and goes to trial for more financial
hanky-panky in November.
Hard to believe a Dartmouth College and Harvard Business School grad could fall so far.
He's even "indigent" and represented by a public defender.
(Story seen on Monday in LA Times)

[Norwell]

Sounds like a Baptist with a heavy mixture of Calvinism: good combination for financial success. The next step is to get his flock to rid themselves of television, thier democrat political registration and to start making weekly visits to thier library.

[Sloth]

I would think that the discipline required to get out of debt would go a long way toward teaching people to STAY out of debt.... Sounds like they are setting up a mentality that if people spend unwisely, someone else will bail them out.

You have a point. On the other hand, these are the kind of people who are voluntarily enslaved to paying a ridiculous 20% or 24% interest that makes it awfully difficult to make headway; perhaps low-interest or interest-free loans would be a better approach.

BTW, I called up and tried to cancel one of my cards recently... they dropped my rate from ~17% to ~6% to keep me. :)

[john in missouri]

I would think there is a rule, or at least a functional dynamic, that they don't strike with lightning in the same place twice.

And I'll tell you what. As someone who is, unfortunately, currently a slave to credit card debt (for the first time in my life at age 40), if someone were to wave a magic wand to get us out of this hell-hole, I would do my best to move heaven and earth never to get into this situation again.

If you've never been there yet, even if you've paid off your credit card balances every month (as we did for years and years), let me give you this piece of free advice -- if you have any credit cards, cut them up NOW.

[Skooz]

Sounds to me like good intentions run awry.

Sounds to me like Christian charity in action. Sometimes when someone falls into a pit (or even jumps in) they cannot get out of it without a helping hand. Christians helping one another in this way is biblical and commendable.

I am glad God doesn't share your mentality that we should all get what we deserve. He offers grace and forgiveness, and that is what these precious Christians are doing for one another.

Sometimes people need a little help. It is not irresponsible to give it to them.

I am glad that when I dug my hole of drug addiction and alcoholism that God offered forgiveness and restoration rather than your "you made your bed, now sleep in it" attitude.

[twigs]

I HAVE been there and was there for a long time, and not out of negligence, either. I have known too many people who depend on the kindness of others to do for them what they need to be doing for themselves. I am truly sorry that you are in the morass now. I know what it is like SO well. It IS hard to get out and I wish for you the very best in doing so!!!

[twigs]

He offers grace and forgiveness, and that is what these precious Christians are doing for one another.

I have been a Christian my whole life and depend on Him utterly. I have made a lot of mistakes in my life and have depended on others to help me. As well, I have given money whenever I could to help others. I have also opened my home to folks recovering from alcohol dependencies. However, I also believe that God teaches that there are consequences for our actions. I know that I have lived mine. Forgiveness, which I need and claim on a daily basis, does not mean that I will not experience the consequences of my actions. It means that I will live with God forever!

[mhking]

Black conservative ping

If you want on (or off) of my black conservative ping list, please let me know via FREEPmail. (And no, you don't have to be black to be on the list!)

[mafree]

Thanks for the ping.

On the whole, this sounds like a good thing as long as they can stay out of debt.

[TomServo]

Being a slave to credit card dept is awful. I wish it upon no one.

Was there myself for a loooooooong time. Now I'm debt free. Totally. No Credit, no car payment, and my favorite. No mortgage. I've often considered a job flipping burgers. :-)

[Skooz]

I agree with every word of that post.

God Bless.

[Gumlegs]

Verrrrrry interesting.

[Drawsing]

As Christians there are many fine lines we walk. Justice and mercy, judgment and tolerance, gentleness and righteous anger...just read the life of Jesus and you see all of these things played out.

There is a time for letting people reap the consequences of their actions and there is a time for this kind of jubilee. Sounds like this congregation is doing it right.

[zeaal]

Interesting idea. Thanks for posting.

[Poohbah]

I would think that the discipline required to get out of debt would go a long way toward teaching people to STAY out of debt.

The couple in this article paid 3/4ths of their debt on their own. That's a lot of discipline there.

And the message of the church is simple and fully in consonance with the teachings of Christ: you've been given a gift. The best gratitude is to give that gift to someone else.

The community is pooling its resources as they see fit; they're helping one another.

And, finally, I offer one final defense: it seems to be working...

[twigs]

You put it quite well. And I agree that there are times in which I would help someone with credit card debt. It would depend on the person (or family) and the circumstances. However, I do not believe that just paying off everyone's credit card debts as a policy without looking at each particular set of circumstances and putting in a plan of action that would continue to call the recipients to accountability, at least for a while, is necessarily a good thing. It could be a plan of enablement without truly helping the people at financial risk.

[twigs]

The couple in this article paid 3/4ths of their debt on their own. That's a lot of discipline there.

You are right. I did not see that when I read the article the first time. It may not have sounded like it, but I really do believe in God's people working collectively to help one another. I have just known some people, my best friend for example, who did give other believers money like this just to see it wasted. It depends on how it's done, who it's given to and the plan of accountability put into place.

[Mugwumps]

Thanks for the post and the ping. Fascinating. The fact that tithing is up and people are learning to live debt-free has to be a good thing. More power to this congregation. May this idea spread!

[swheats]

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[Mo1]

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[swheats]

I was skeptical at first until I read this portion,
Those newly freed from debt must attend a seminar on staying solvent. Then the pastor meets with them periodically to see where they stand. So far, he says, there have been no backsliders. "Once you get that weight off your shoulders, you never want to go back," says Mr. Beaver.

At least there are steps of accountability and helping families stay out of debt.

[tdadams]

What a great idea. Let's hope this is an idea that many other churches across the nation will replicate. How liberating and empowering to deliver your members from the slavery of debt.

[WileyC]

Interesting how car loans are seen as appropriate, even though unlike houses, cars are worth only a tiny fraction of their purchase price by the time they're paid off.

The difference between cars and the majority of the credit card debt, is that a vehicle is necessity for most people. A car is, or should be, an investment in one's hireability.

[hoosierham]

AMEN ! And the best to you john.

[DB]

Ditto that: no mortgage, no car loans, no credit card debt, no rent, no leases. It is a much happier way to live.

[Eagle Eye]

I just don't understand why some should pay for the others.

This may be one of those things that if you need to have it explained, you probably still wouldn't get it.

[parsifal]

O Lord! Lead thy people to Chapter 7! Show them the way, Lord, show them the way! Help us, thy flock, save our cash for one heck of a dinner-on-the-ground! Amen---Brother Parsy.

[texgal]

If you've never been there yet, even if you've paid off your credit card balances every month (as we did for years and years), let me give you this piece of free advice -- if you have any credit cards, cut them up NOW!

Amen to what you have said. I will always be grateful to my daughter's high school economics teacher when he told them about the evils of credit cards and showed them how much easier it would be for them to save for things they wanted rather than try to pay off the credit card debt.

He told them in jest that the holograms you see on the cards were tiny pieces of debtors souls - he may have been closer to the truth than he realized.

[TomServo]

Ditto that: no mortgage, no car loans, no credit card debt, no rent, no leases. It is a much happier way to live.

Absolutely. I sleep better knowing I that I could get laid off at work tommorrow, and not give a damn. My wife says if it happens, we're taking a vacation. :-)