Posted on 06/13/2002 8:15:19 AM PDT by attagirl
The following is a transcript of the October 20, 2001 interview. [irrelevant niceties have been omitted, niceties which are not particularly pertinent to the subject of the interview].
Copies of the interview audiocassette may be ordered from T.C.C. Audio (925) 449 8402 tapeguy@earthlink.net, 578 Meadowlark St., Livermore CA 94550.
Please forgive some blanks where tape was inaudible.
GM=Geoff Metcalf. DS=David Schippers.
Geoff Metcalf, WorldNetDaily Radio Interview w/ David Schippers, Counsel, Clinton Impeachment
GM: You've rattled all kinds of cages...well, why don't you explain who Jayna Davis is and how you got involved with her.
DS: This is a strange story...Jayna Davis, at the time of the April 19th, 1995 Oklahoma City (OKC) bombing, she was an investigative reporter for NBC, KFOR, OKC. She immediately began an investigation to determine whether or not there was any middle east connection in there. At the time she started out, probably within minutes after the explosion, and she did a job the likes of which I have never seen. This woman is probably one of the greatest investigators I have ever worked with. After I returned from Washington lots of people wrote me letters, some complimentary, some not complimentary...However, she wrote me a letter and made some statement in there about "I have information about the OKC bombing and the Middle East connection. " Well, very honestly I put it aside...I wrote everybody back who wrote to me with a return address, kind of thank you very much, etc. She wrote back and enclosed some material from her investigation and said "Just please read this and call me." Well, I read it and did call her. She said "You've just seen the tip of the iceberg. I have a lot more. Would you be interested in looking at it?" I said "Why don't you go to the FBI or to the people who are interested?" She said "I've gone to the FBI with everything I have here and they refused to take it." This was long before the McVeigh trial. I said "Why don't you send it up to me?" and she said "I'm not going to send it up; I'll bring it up." So she and her husband, and they are not rich people, they got on an airplane with her binders, files, and a tape of all of her material that she had aired during the course of her investigation. The tape itself is fascinating. It showed me that there is something there more than just the usual crazy, what do you call it, conspiratorial stuff. In fact that was my first thought. Ah, here we go again, you know, another goofy conspiracy guy saying it was a conspiracy and the CIA was involved. When she brought that stuff up and I started reading it. .. these weren't just dreams. These were affidavits from people. I saw the warning that was issued about the bombing. I saw the affidavits. I saw evidence that there were nine security cameras that picked up the people running from the place, before the bombing. I found out that the FBI had seized all those films, and no one had ever seen them. That's how I got to meet her and got to know her. This woman is not a nut by a long shot.
GM: Here's the fascinating thing that is so flummoxing You can almost make a case...those of us who suffered through the dark ages of the Clinton regime to understand why his administration might be diffident to share that kind of information, but there is a new sherriff in town. How come the Ashcroft Justice Department...come on, David, they've been taking FBI reports from people in Des Moines who said that their neighbor looks weird.
DS: Yeah, unfortunately that's what they're doing...going around talking to all these people. And some of my friends who are actually federal agents have been told to stay away from this. They are looking in all the wrong places for all the wrong things. I am convinced, thoroughly convinced, based on the material I got from her, based on things told me by agent friends...nothing secure or top secret like that, purely from material available to anyone who wants to look for it. I am thoroughly convinced that there was a dead bang mideast connection in the OKC bombing, think Bin Laden was behind it, that there were mideastern people on the scene running away.
GM: At the time, I heard these same kinds of reports of a potential mideast connection... Question about Kashmir...all the mysterious John Does...
DS: JD#2, right.
GM: At the time one of the arguments was if the terrorists did it, terrorists do bad stuff so that they can take credit for it. If they were involved in OKC bombing why aren't they jumping up and down saying " see what we did to you, see?"
DS: They still haven't done it re the towers, have they? Bin Laden came close to saying it. I think their attitude is the people who count know who did it. And I'm very much afraid, at the time I didn't think so much of it... 1999-2000 - before then.
GM: I can understand that, I can understand that.
DS: What I couldn't understand at the time were the professionals. I'm used to working with FBI, ATF, IRS agents. These guys are the most dedicated, decent human beings on the face of the earth. My attitude would be if somebody came to them...I had one working with me out in Washington... this guy didn't care if we were after the President of the United States; this guy was a stand-up guy. The agents I met in Washington were all great people, hard working, dedicated.
GM: We've also heard from Gary Aldrich, etc. who have been on the inside. It's not the grunt in the field...these are the salt of the earth. It's the cancer that has infected the management, the bureaucracy.
DS: Exactly right, that was the hump that I couldn't get over. I couldn't believe that anyone who carried that gold badge, either in FBI, ATF or any of those places, would be willing to go along with any kind of a deal like that.
GM: Let me ask you this. Have you been able to determine if in fact FBI is today, right now, bridling their agents or local authorities from taking out people who they know to be terrorists?
DS: Do I think they are? Yes.
GM: Okay, you think they are. Do you have any proof?
DS: I've got some pretty good info. I know that there are things going on in OKC right now. Now you know when Jayna Davis brought all her material to the FBI and said "Here, maybe you can use this". This wasn't somebody who said I want an exclusive, or want to get my name in the paper. She brought it to the FBI Office in OKC. An agent said "wait a minute, let me check." He went back and said "We don't want it." Now that wasn't his decsion, it came from somewhere else. And to this day they haven't looked at it, to this day. And I know, Jayna told me that there are individuals who saw this mideastern man running away. They have the affidavits, I read the affidavits. The FBI interviewed these people. And tried to get them to say, they weren't putting words in their mouths, but they kind of hinted...showed them a picture of Nichols...and they said "absolutely not, it was a middle easterner". COMMERCIAL.
GM: David, you are a hero to a lot of people regarding what happened or what didn't happen in the impeachment proceedings. It's reasonable to assume that you have some connections with the Congress. Have you talked to any Congress critters about this? Yes, I have. The John Doe material and the OKC bombing are just a part of the stuff I got. I had info indicating there was going to be a massive attack in lower Manhattan and I couldn't get anybody to listen to me. GM: When was that?
DS: About a month and a half before 9/11. We got info that there was going to be...the original thing I heard...you ought to ask Bodansky about that because when I heard you were advertising his book, he's been very close to Jayna Davis...he's talked to her...he was one of the people behind the warning that came out in Feb. 19 in 1995 that there was going...this is the warning that I saw that there was going to be an attack on the USA by Bin Laden's people...that the original target, and this is the way it reads, the original target was supposed to be the White House and the Capitol Bldg and they were going to use commercial airliners as bombs.
GM: I remember there was a story from the Philippines.
DS: That was the second one. They caught a guy in the Philippines.
GM: Same scenario.
DS: By the way, Jayna put that same person together with Nichols over in the Philippines. Jayna had an individual and this is one of the wild stories. Jayna found an individual who worked in a tavern in OKC who put this mideastern individual together with McVeigh three days before the bombing. She ran the story. To show you how sharp she is, she ran the story and of course completely concealed the identity of the individual who was talking but showed a picture of the tavern. Now the tavern they chose to show was not the actual tavern at which McVeigh and the guy had been to. Two days after it was shown this guy showed up at the right tavern. When asked later how did he find the tavern, he said "I saw it on TV." Put it together with McVeigh two days before. She found people who saw a large truck that stank...like it was full of fertilizers, parked outside a motel down there. She got people in the motel to identify McVeigh as being near the truck. If you read the stuff she's got and talked to the people she's developed, but I can't get anyone to listen.
GM: What about Ashcroft? He's the man.
DS: I tried to reach Ashcroft, to go through a couple of Congressmen...and, of course, remember when I first started getting this, in Feb. or March of this year, I started getting this information from her and I reached out for a couple of people, and I thought "I'm going nowhere with Reno...as long as she's around we're not going to get anything done, so I waited until Ashcroft was confirmed and then I started reaching out for them...I couldn't get anyone to talk to me." So, I got to know Phyllis Schlafly...
GM: That sounds sort of Clintonesque. They use you like a tissue and discard you..
DS: No question about that, I became a pariah in Washington. Let's face it, I did my job and wouldn't change a thing. But to a lot of people out there, and I specifically exclude guys like Henry Hyde, Bob Barr, Graham, people on committee were fine, but it was the idea that they couldn't do anything.
GM: David, one thing I was wondering, because you were kind of ___in the foreshadowing that you wanted to approach them with... maybe they were just embarrassed to talk to you because you had a warning and they ignored it.
DS: Well, I didn't call out there and say I've got a warning that this is going to happen, I was talking about the infiltration of Hamas, how they are moving the money, I have evidence on that, I have all kinds of material on that. The only time that any terrorist money was seized was here in Chicago where an FBI agent did an affidavit for seizure of I forget how much, $700,000 of Hamas funds, but they got the money. I was trying to say to them, after Sept. 11, I have people with charts for you showing where it comes from, how you get it, etc. Phyllis Schlafly finally apparently made some calls. She called me one day and left word "I talked to John Ashcroft, he will call me tomorrow." Next morning I did get a call from the Justice Department, but it wasn't from Ashcroft. Frankly, I didn't expect the AG to call me.
GM: But some Deputy might.
DS: Well, it was a deputy. I started to tell him what I had. Started to tell him some of the materials I had, some of the problems I had, and he said "We don't start our investigations at the top." I said "What do you mean?" He said "We don't start our investigations with the AG. Let me look into this and I'll have someone get back to you right away." That was like July 15. I still haven't heard anything from anybody.
GM: Who was the guy who talked to you, got a name?
DS: I had a name and I can't remember it now. I threw it away after about a month.
GM: Because I'd like to get his butt fired.
DS: Oh no, he probably did pass it on to somebody and he said "Schippers is just another conspiracy guy".
GM: That's BS. If, the FBI is allegedly looking for any info or data, you'd think they would be on you like white on rice, to at least take a look at this stuff.
DS: That's right; that's exactly right. You'd think...when Jayna received a call fifteen minutes before the first plane hit the tower, from an individual who had a mideastern accent...all he said was "turn on your TV". She then received a call from a friend of her's in Naval Intelligence, and by the way, let me add that the one intelligence agency in the U.S. Govt. which has been doing a magnificent job is Naval Intelligence. This guy called her from overseas and he said "The same people did this that did OKC and get out of the house...you are in danger." Later she got another strange telephone call. She called the FBI and told them "I've got some info here, have talked to some people who have info re mideastern groups in OKC right now that you might be interested in." She called me and said the guy was almost yawning, he said "Look, If you've got anything, you'd better bring it over but get it here before five o'clock because we close at 5 o 'clock."
GM: What kind of reaction do you get from the good guys still left in Congress, like Bob Barr?
DS: Bob Barr was livid. He was livid. And I'll tell you, there's more to it than just Jayna. There are individuals who have info which is vital to this investigation. Some of them are federal agents. They can't talk without a subpoena. Larry Klayman has been helping on this thing since he has the contacts out there. We had an individual who was scheduled to fly to Washington about a week and a half ago, a Thursday. This individual got a call from his boss who said 'you will not fly anywhere, you will not talk to anybody, you will have to tell us everywhere you go, and when you leave your house, you will have to tell us where you are going and when you will be back." When I told that to Bob Barr I thought he would go through the ceiling. We are trying to get some kind of subpoena, but...If I sound frustrated, I am. It's unbelievable. It's been a month.
GM: Let me tell you, partner, you're not The Lone Ranger. Commercial.
(Edited out caller discussing OKC bombing info, very interesting but not particularly pertinent to Schippers info)
DS response to caller: "No question that McVeigh was there, all these people whose affidavits I've seen identify McVeigh as one of the people running from the scene, but they also identify this mideastern man. If you recall originally, and Jayna Davis has the original police tapes on this, the original "all points bulletin" went out for John Doe II, describing an automobile, describing everything, as a Mideastern individual. There's one point in there where a policeman comes on from a police car and says "By what authority are we to stop these people?" And the despatcher says "Authority FBI , OKC." And all of a sudden it stopped. There was not another sound about it. Not another word. Those tapes disappeared. Luckily Jayna had already taped it off the police radio.
GM: David, one question, if there were several other witnesses to these fleeing mideastern suspects, why was Dean Bradley the only defense witness.
DS: I have no idea. Well the other witnesses all put McVeigh right there. You wouldn't put another witness on the stand to say who was there, who did you see, I saw a mideastern man and your client. No question McVeigh was as guilty as you could get but the coverup on the Mideastern man is the one that has my mind boggled.
DS: Who is this Al Hasani Hussein (sp?)` Where is he now?
DS: I don't know. One of the people hanging around there, can't recall his name. Last I heard and this was April or May, he was supposed to be working at Logan Airport, Boston. I've been told by top-notch authorities...this was all before the bombing at the WTC...by top agents who in my opinion are some of the best agents in world that there were Hamas operatives working at O'Hare, with free reign all over the airport, with their little badge hanging over their shoulders...and it's _____in most airports.
...DS, in response to lengthy questions from caller regarding General Partin's position, etc., said "I think when AG Ashcroft took over, remember McVeigh was executed shortly after, I think he relied on the top officials in the Justice Dept. at that time...
GM: these were all Clinton leftovers...
DS: Yes, and they are all the bureaucrats, and he may have relied on the bureaucracy in the FBI, the same thing, so believe me, I lay no blame at the door of the Bush administration. They walked into something which was almost an accomplished fact. Remember, it was six years ago that that thing went up, that the OKC bombs went up, and once they had taken that stand, the FBI bureaucracy and whomever else was deciding on this, once they had taken their position, it woud take an atomic bomb to blast them loose from it. It's going to be, if it ever comes out, if it's ever proved, and I don't know if it ever will be, if it ever comes out, it's going to be the biggest scandal in the history of the United States.
GM: It has to be frustrating for you, in the wake of this apparent sea change that is going on in the country right now, this international manhunt, all these people being arrested all over the world, David, it seems like a brain ? not to take a look at the materials that Jayna has...
DS: The materials Jayna has dating back to 1995 and 1996, that's one thing, but she's got materials current as far as newspapers, affidavits, statements, individuals, she has identified people who are on the list of the 22 terrorists, and nobody will listen to her. COMMERCIAL.
GM: David, is there any chance you can get to an Intelligence Committee member?
DS: I tried, I tried...let me tell you, I was on a program out of Pittsburgh two weeks ago...within a day or so I received a call from a staffer for the Speaker of the House. They said "we didn't hear you on the radio but there is a report that you have been saying something about the FBI, etc. and what about it?" Normally I don't want to talk to staffers because I had enough of them when I was there ...
GM: been there, done that.
DS: I gave this guy a very good background on what I had, what I'm telling you, maybe even a little more. He said "Okay, that's fascinating; let me report it and we'll get back to you." I didn't hear anything. Then someone reached Senator Shelby on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and he ordered one of his staffers to call me. This was maybe a week and a half ago, just to find out what it was all about. I gave him the information, said I had not only Jayna Davis, but others willing to talk to you. I really need some subpoenas to get them to talk to you in Executive Session so you can find out exactly what's wrong and what's going on. OKAY, we'll get back to you. I haven't heard anything. "We'll get back to you" has taken the place of "Let's be bipartisan."
GM: What about Governor Ridge?
DS: I haven't attempted to reach him and I haven't attempted to reach General Downing. I would hope that I could get to one or both of them. Both of them have the imprimata from the President to override that bureaucracy and to say "Look, you do what you are told to do ."
GM: One of the challenges Ridge has is trying to manage all these different agencies with their own territorial imperative.
DS: That's the problem, the turf wars. When I headed up the organized crime section here in Chicago I ran into exactly that sort of thing, every agency had its own turf. I had finally had it when I sent someone out to interview one of the outfit guys. He said, laughing, "you are the fourth agency to come out to see me this week." After that I couldn't get the agencies to work together but I could get the agents to work together. They would come up and sit around and drink coffee and say "What can I do for you and what can you do for me?" After that, we clobbered the outfit here in Chicago.
GM: You made one observation earlier, was a big deal... said there were some 302s missing.
DS: They've never turned up. When an FBI agent interviews a witness or a prospective witness they have to fill out a 302. It will always be that way. Now if these individuals that Jayna has the affidavits of and that were interviewed...and I've seen the affidavits which say "I was interviewed by the FBI...they suggested it was Nichols, but I told them it wasn't"...those 302's as far as anybody could ascertain never have been turned over to the Nichols defense; they still haven't surfaced. Who or how or where could those be subpoened? Freedom of Information Act?
DS: In an ongoing investigation. Let's say you are defending Nichols and you have a witness who told an FBI agent "No, it was not Nichols, it was another guy." If that isn't exculpatory of Nichols I don't know what is.
GM: And it's obstruction of justice.
DS: And it's also, under the rules of evidence, and under the Supreme Court of the U.S. decision it has to be turned over to the defense. But apparently it hasn't. And all of that garbage that they showed up with, none of it was in there.
GM: I can hear the frustration in your voice.
DS: Yeah, you know I can understand that they are not terribly interested in Dave Schippers out in Washington; not terribly interested in hearing from me. I think the biggest mistake in a lot of minds out there was bringing me out for the impeachment because...COMMERCIAL.
DS: There's an FBI agent here in Chicago who filed an affidavit for the seizure of that money and if you read that affidavit, you'll see where the money comes from, where it goes, how it's moved, who is behind it.
GM: That's a 30-page affidavit. You mean an FBI agent fills out a 30-page affidavit and the FBI won't look at it?
DS: That's right. I'll tell you something. If they are going to seize Bin Laden's assets, they are going to need that affidavit and yet, as I understand it, I am not privy to all of this, but as I understand it that agent is not working on the 9/11 bombing.
GM: David, what can people do?
DS: God knows. I've been trying to do everything I can. I don't want any publicity. I don't care. All I want to do is take these people out there, turn them over to somebody who will do something, preferably Gov. Ridge or Gen. Downing and say "will you please listen to these people. If they have something. If you don't want to use it fine, but now you are now on notice."
GM: This interview is going to show up in Sunday's World Net Daily.
DS: Good. GM: Shall we tell people to start wagging on their Congress critters?
DS: I don't know...when the Dept. of Justice tells an agent that you can't talk to the Congress of the United States, that's what they tried with us.. They tried saying in the impeachment we won't let you talk with any of our people. And I threatened Reno with jail if she tried to obstruct our investigation. Of course, when I told Henry Hyde, he almost had a heart attack, but it got her attention.
GM: Write to the Dept. of Justice, Gov. Ridge?
DS: I would write to Gov. Ridge or Gen.Downing. Those are the two people in whom I am reposing my final trust. I don't think the people at the top know about these roadblocks being thrown out. I'm sure they don't. I was afraid that Louis Freeh...but then when I found out that Louis Freeh had to use the Saudi Arabian Ambassador because he couldn't trust the President or the A.G. to get him info and that he had to keep info from the President of the U.S.A. since he might misuse it, I realized that I should have gone to Freeh, but it was too late when I found that out.
DS: All I'm asking is for someone to come out and look at what I've got; I have it all in my office.
GM: And I'm assuming that this info is redundant and that there is multiple copies of it and that it is secure.
DS: There are multiple copies and it is secure.
GM: David, I want to thank you not just for joining us today but for everything you are doing. I'll look forward to talkng to you again.,p>
I KNOW this photo, is as well known as the unibomber's
should read,
I KNOW this drawing is as well known as the unibomber's...
a new twist on an old arkancided. hadn't heard this before. thanx.
Pentagon Report: Destruction in OKC Caused by 5 Seperate Bombs
3-20-1996: Colby's Strategic Investment Weekly leaks information from a classified Pentagon Report concluding Middle Eastern involvement in the OKC bombing
4-27-1996: Colby dies in a canoe "accident"
5-8-1996: OKCPD Officer Terry Teakey was murdered.
5-17-1996:Chief of Naval Operations (i.e. Pentagon) Admiral Jeremy "Mike" Boorda was murdered.
BlueDogDemo(former ONI) has indicated that Admiral Boorda was active in an investigation into the OKC bombing, including the fact that Boorda requested BDD to visit the site the day of the bombing and report his findings. Admiral Boorda had ties to Oklahoma, in addition, his wife was from OKC.
My working theory has been that William Colby, Admiral Boorda, and Terry Yeakey were all murdered to cover up the truth about the OKC bombing. Thanks Nancie for this new information about the tape. Any additional information concerning the tape would be appreciated.Thanks for the flag, thinden.
On another note, Jose Padilla....wonder if he worked in security. Remember Akal and that strange Sufi cult associated with it?
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