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Islamic Scholar Warns U.S. of 'Two-Faced' Muslims
UPI ^ | June 20, 2002 | UPI

Posted on 06/19/2002 1:56:45 PM PDT by ZULU

Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Islamic Scholar Warns U.S. of 'Two-Faced' Muslims

NewsMax.com Wires

Thursday, June 20, 2002

WASHINGTON – A leader of the small worldwide Muslim reform movement is warning the West against wishful thinking as the U.S. government promotes an intensive dialogue with Islam.

"The dialogue is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other," Bassam Tibi said Tuesday in an interview with United Press International.

Syrian-born Tibi, who claims to be a direct descendant of the prophet Mohammed and teaches political science at Goettingen University in Germany, appealed for intellectual honesty in these exchanges.

This Is 'Peace'?

"First, both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms these mean different things to each of them. The word 'peace,' for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam – or 'House of Islam' – to the entire world," explained Tibi, who is also a research scholar at Harvard University.

"This is completely different from the Enlightenment concept of eternal peace that dominates Western thought, a concept developed by Immanuel Kant," an 18th-century philosopher.

This Is 'Tolerance'?

"Similarly, when Muslims and the Western heirs of the Enlightenment speak of tolerance they have different things in mind. In Islamic terminology, this term implies abiding non-Islamic monotheists, such as Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, as second-class believers. They are 'dhimmi,' a protected but politically immature minority."

According to Tibi, the quest of converting the entire world to Islam is an immutable fixture of the Muslim worldview. Only if this task is accomplished, if the world has become a "Dar al-Islam," will it also be a "Dar a-Salam," or a house of peace.

Tibi appealed to his co-religionists to "revise their understanding of peace and tolerance by accepting pluralism." Furthermore, he said, Muslim leaders should give up the notion of Jihad in the sense of conquest, as opposed to Jihad as an internal struggle of the individual.

Liberal Mush

Tibi's advice comes at a time when the U.S. government is urging American Muslim leaders to promote understanding for the United States in Islamic regions. To Tibi, this is more of a diplomatic endeavor than the promotion of a more profound theological understanding between Islam and the Judeo-Christian worldview prevalent in the West.

But Muzammil Siddiqi, one senior Islamic scholar the State Department consults with, told UPI he found that his efforts in furthering contacts between Muslim, Christian and Jewish theologians were having some success.

Indian-born Siddiqi is the director of the large Islamic Center of Orange County in California. In consultation with the State Department and in cooperation with the University of Kentucky, he traveled back and forth between the United States and the Middle East trying to convince Muslim theologians and jurists to meet with American church leaders.

"I have found that many, though not all, were ready to welcome visitors from America and also to come here to explore with Christians and Jews what we have in common," Siddiqi said.

Though Siddiqi's center is heavily engaged in interfaith activities, he made it clear that to him, as indeed for conservative Christians, syncretism – the mixing of religions – was anathema.

Common values should be sought out, he explained, and the equality of all believers respected, be they Muslims, Christians, Hindus or Buddhists. But the purity of the faith must not be compromised.

In an article in the prestigious Hamburg weekly Die Zeit, Tibi gave anecdotal evidence of how daunting a task this dialogue with Islam can be.

Staring in Horror at the Bible

The bishop of Hildesheim in Germany paid an imam a courtesy visit in his mosque. The imam handed the Catholic prelate a Koran, which he joyfully accepted. But when the bishop tried to present the imam with a Bible, the Muslim cleric just stared at him in horror and refused to even touch Christianity's holy book.

"The bishop was irritated because he perceived this behavior as a gross discourtesy," wrote Tibi, "but the imam had only acted according to his faith. For if an imam gives a bishop a Koran, he considers this a Da'Wa, or call to Islam."

This, explained Tibi, must be borne in mind when one engages in a dialogue with Muslim "scholars," for it corresponds to a verse in the Koran: "And say ... to those who are unlearned: 'Do ye submit yourselves?'" (Surah 3:20).

Copyright 2002 by United Press International.

All rights reserved.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: hughhewitt; taqiyyalist
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Apparently there are Muslims willing to call a spade a spade.
1 posted on 06/19/2002 1:56:45 PM PDT by ZULU
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To: ZULU
The religious coding of the simple words 'peace' and 'tolerance' in Islam indicates that much dialogue with Muslims is likely to be fraught with misunderstanding. Perhaps an agreement should be made up front that only secular word definitions should be used.

Wrt the Bishop of Hildesheim anecdote:

To tell the truth, I'm tempted, despite myself, to believe this is apocryphal because of the sheer unworldliness of the Imam in this passage. If such assumptions and attitudes are typical, it would show the unbelievable effrontery and high handedness of Islamic 'holy men'. So much so, that their understanding of the real world should be brought into serious question.

2 posted on 06/19/2002 2:11:45 PM PDT by Post Toasties
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To: ZULU
The dialogue (between Muslims and the West) is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other..."

That pretty well sums up the entire situation.

3 posted on 06/19/2002 2:14:44 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: ZULU
This is a UPI article? Wonders never cease.

If these reporters can get to the truth, why can't the State Department? It took me a few months of exposure to Middle Eastern Muslims in grad school to come to these same conclusions. I have to wonder if anyone in the State Department has even met a Muslim, much less tried to do business with one.

I wonder if Tibi is available for a new job. I'm willing to take him as Secretary of State in trade for Powell, 100 civil servants, and a camel to be named later.

4 posted on 06/19/2002 2:17:27 PM PDT by LTCJ
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To: ZULU
Messages to Muslims in America
5 posted on 06/19/2002 2:19:30 PM PDT by JeepInMazar
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To: ZULU
"Two-faced Muslims"-- there's a concept.
6 posted on 06/19/2002 2:21:36 PM PDT by Clara Lou
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To: ZULU
bump for a decent muslim.
7 posted on 06/19/2002 2:23:14 PM PDT by Red Jones
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To: LTCJ
"I have to wonder if anyone in the State Department has even met a Muslim, much less tried to do business with one."

I take it you have had dealing with Muslims? I have heard unless you get your money up front, a Muslim will re nig on the deal as Muslims do not believe in being in debt and will use religion to back out of paying.

8 posted on 06/19/2002 2:24:04 PM PDT by Ladybug1
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To: ZULU
the small worldwide Muslim reform movement

Bassam Tibi is a direct descendant of Muhammed. Only such a person will receive a hearing of any kind amongst Muslims. Wish him well.

9 posted on 06/19/2002 2:28:07 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: ZULU; swarthyguy; dennisw; AM2000; mikeIII; atc; Sawdring; Travis McGee; Red Jones; Spar
bump
10 posted on 06/19/2002 2:53:53 PM PDT by Aaron_A
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To: LTCJ; ZULU; knighthawk; dennisw
These two faced muslims are better known as "Trojan Horse Muslims", they are the advance party sent into the "Dar al Harb", (house of war, non-muslim territory) to pretend to be "moderate" muslims and prepare the way for the Jihadists to come.
11 posted on 06/19/2002 6:47:56 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: dennisw; OKCSubmariner; watchin; VOA; harpseal; timestax; xJones; justshutupandtakeit; TopDog2; ...
ZULU: great article.

Islam list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

12 posted on 06/20/2002 12:00:10 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Travis McGee
Trojan Horse Muslims

Added to my dictionary.

13 posted on 06/20/2002 12:02:18 AM PDT by knighthawk
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To: Travis McGee
Trojan Horse Muslims

Better be careful. Somebody might mistake this for one of those "sex threads" and it'll end up with 350 posts!

14 posted on 06/20/2002 1:01:58 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: ZULU
Muslims also have a different meaning in mind when they speak of their "humiliation" at the hands of the West or Israel (as they do very often).

As near as I can tell from seeing how they use this word, what they really mean by "humiliation" is how enraged they feel when anything happens that prevents them from getting/having absolutely everything they want.

15 posted on 06/20/2002 1:23:47 AM PDT by Dan Day
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To: Dan Day
Their "humiliation" seems rather child-like, really. Dangerous children, eh?
16 posted on 06/20/2002 1:37:11 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: ZULU
Fellow freepers, you heard it here first.
17 posted on 06/20/2002 1:39:29 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Jeff Chandler
Imagine what'll happen if somebody calls 'em 'Moose and Cheese' Muslims!
18 posted on 06/20/2002 2:04:26 AM PDT by uglybiker
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To: ZULU
Tibi and Palazzi. Two courrageous men. I will differ though on their emphasis on definitions (all too much used by Islam and which makes it inherently radical), though they are important too.
19 posted on 06/20/2002 2:07:02 AM PDT by lavaroise
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To: uglybiker
My sister was once bitten by a moose.
20 posted on 06/20/2002 2:08:40 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: ZULU
The bishop of Hildesheim in Germany paid an imam a courtesy visit in his mosque. The imam handed the Catholic prelate a Koran, which he joyfully accepted. But when the bishop tried to present the imam with a Bible, the Muslim cleric just stared at him in horror and refused to even touch Christianity's holy book.

This is why at some point the West will realize the first step in really fixing this problem will require making Mecca a place that used to be on the map.

21 posted on 06/20/2002 2:26:29 AM PDT by Fzob
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To: ZULU
They are 'dhimmi,' a protected but politically immature minority."

Finally, an acknowledgement that it's more of a political system than a religion.

22 posted on 06/20/2002 3:13:09 AM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: ZULU
bump
23 posted on 06/20/2002 3:20:56 AM PDT by GuillermoX
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To: ZULU
"The dialogue is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other," Bassam Tibi said Tuesday in an interview with United Press International.

Important info bump.

24 posted on 06/20/2002 3:21:14 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: knighthawk; Travis McGee
Trojan Horse Muslims

Otherwise known as "Homo sapiens var. profilacticus loco-equinea"

25 posted on 06/20/2002 3:50:41 AM PDT by piasa
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To: ZULU
Americans were not always so gullible. Our common sense has been eroded by decades of liberal education and hypertolerance indoctrination.

For example, suppose in 1939 the Nazi party established a headquarters in every city and large american town in the USA. Suppose they funded these headquarters directly from Berlin and recruited members from among society's dregs in prisons and gangs. Suppose Nazis immigrated to the USA by the shipload and took up residences across the nation.

Who would stand for that?

Suppose they spread propaganda and told everybody "we are peaceful people from the land of chocolate".

Who would believe this?

But today Islam is invading the USA, recruiting in prisons, putting their Saudi funded mosques everywhere, lying to us that "Islam is Peace" etc etc, and the USA largely just accepts it.

Islam has no place in the west.

26 posted on 06/20/2002 4:40:01 AM PDT by rageaholic
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To: ZULU
"First, both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms these mean different things to each of them.

Furthermore, they do not share a cultural context from which to establish an understanding. Concepts such as the separation of church and state, the existence of objective truth and the desirability of speaking it, which are a given in the West, are utterly alien to Islam.

27 posted on 06/20/2002 6:58:37 AM PDT by Steve1789
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To: ZULU; generalissimoduane; *Hugh Hewitt
"The dialogue is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors
on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other,"...


Well, maybe we've found one honest Muslim (outside those few pockets like
Turkey).

I hope this gets picked up by the Prager, Medved and Hewitt shows.
28 posted on 06/20/2002 7:14:51 AM PDT by VOA
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To: LTCJ
This is a UPI article? Wonders never cease.

UPI had an analysis article that basically said most American and virtually all
European reporters swallowed the Jenin "massacre" story hook, line and sinker.
I think it even said that NPR had earned the title "National Palestinian Radio".

Sounds like there's at least a pocket of sanity at UPI.
29 posted on 06/20/2002 7:17:07 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Madame Dufarge
Surprise. But those who choose not to believe that islam is primarily a totalitarian ideology insisting on a complete subservience of the individual to the tenets of islam are simply fooling themselves. Many islamic scholars assert with pride that islam is a way of life and an ideology for governance and politics.
30 posted on 06/20/2002 8:01:17 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Jeff Chandler
That never crossed my synapses. You must lead a more colorful life.
31 posted on 06/20/2002 9:02:31 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: knighthawk
Trojan Horse Muslimscreates an instant mental picture and illustrates the concept of muslim duplicity extremely well, that's why I use it all the time.

Even those sheeple who only casually follow this culture war can at a glance comprehend the meaning of Trojan Horse Muslims, and they won't forget it.

32 posted on 06/20/2002 9:05:27 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Dan Day
You nailed it.

A muslim is "humiliated" when a Westerner has a better car then he.

Muslims are "humiliated" when they stand next to a taller or stronger non-muslim.

A muslims were "humiliated" when the Wright Brothers invented airplanes. And so on.

IOW, muslims have the mentality of an angry bitter 10 year old.

33 posted on 06/20/2002 9:08:13 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: rageaholic
Every word you wrote was right on point.
34 posted on 06/20/2002 9:09:23 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: ZULU
Bump for later read during momentary pauses in Armageddon.
35 posted on 06/20/2002 9:24:09 AM PDT by SevenDaysInMay
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To: VOA
Don't hold your breath.
36 posted on 06/20/2002 9:26:46 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: rageaholic
The situation with Islam, together with the mouthings of our left-leaning Supreme Court spell deep trouble for what is left of traditional American Society.

You are right.

Years of politically correct thinking, exposure of weak and undisciplined young minds to Hollyweird, leftist newspaper propaganda, education by liberal freaks masquerading as teachers, actions by jellyfish calling themselves Politicians, wacko left-wing Clergymen, conscienceless attorneys, etc, has destroyed our ability to defend ourselves, our beliefs, and our society.

37 posted on 06/20/2002 9:35:04 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: LTCJ
I hope Tibi had good life insurance before he made this statement - he's liable to get the Rushdie treatment.
38 posted on 06/20/2002 9:38:54 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: rageaholic
Excellent Post rageaholic. I wish many more Americans understood the long range threat that the exponental growth of Islam poses to America. Travis' "Trojan Horse Muslims" is the perfect way to picture this.
39 posted on 06/20/2002 9:45:26 AM PDT by WRhine
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: ZULU
"First, both sides should acknowledge candidly that although they might use identical terms these mean different things to each of them. The word 'peace,' for example, implies to a Muslim the extension of the Dar al-Islam – or 'House of Islam' – to the entire world," explained Tibi, who is also a research scholar at Harvard University.

In other words, as expressed in the great classic Bored of the Rings,

Peace iss vat ve vant und do haff,
Und a piece uff everyting you haff.

41 posted on 06/20/2002 10:37:42 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: Fzob
The bishop of Hildesheim in Germany paid an imam a courtesy visit in his mosque. The imam handed the Catholic prelate a Koran, which he joyfully accepted. But when the bishop tried to present the imam with a Bible, the Muslim cleric just stared at him in horror and refused to even touch Christianity's holy book.

This is why at some point the West will realize the first step in really fixing this problem will require making Mecca a place that used to be on the map.

The bishop naively thought the imam was being "ecumenical", as it might be with Protestants, Jews, or even Hindus. But the imam was inviting the bishop to Islam.

The Muslims claim Adam, Noah, the major Jewish prophets, and Jesus as prophets of Islam. And after all the notion of submission to God's will was not invented by Muhammad, was it? Twisted by him yes.

They claim that the Torah given to Moses and the Gospels were correct until those rotten Jews and Christians rewrote them. Seventh century higher critics.

42 posted on 06/20/2002 10:55:13 AM PDT by Salman
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To: ZULU
This fellow, BASSAM TIBI, has got Americans pegged for the suckers we are!
Hey suckers, are you listening???
43 posted on 06/20/2002 11:01:40 AM PDT by Minutemen
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To: ZULU
"But Muzammil Siddiqi, one senior Islamic scholar the State Department consults with, told UPI he found that his efforts in furthering contacts between Muslim, Christian and Jewish theologians were having some success. Indian-born Siddiqi is the director of the large Islamic Center of Orange County in California. In consultation with the State Department and in cooperation with the University of Kentucky, he traveled back and forth between the United States and the Middle East trying to convince Muslim theologians and jurists to meet with American church leaders."

Yes there are muslims who will call a spade a spade. however Siddiqi is not one of them.

Siddiqi is President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). Which has ties to HAMAS and Musa Abu Marzook which ISNA supported while Marzook was in prison for being part of the conflict between HAMAS and the Jodanian Authorities in 1999. Additionally Siraj Wahhaj and who was Siddiqi's Vice President was also included in the US Attorney's list of inindicted persons who maybe alleged as co-conspirators in the World Trade Center Bombing. (2/2/95 United States v. Omar Ahmad Ali Abdel Rahman).

Siddiqi was also part of the 2000 rally in DC in front of the White House where he blamed America for the injustices of the Palestine people.

44 posted on 06/20/2002 11:23:17 AM PDT by PoppingSmoke
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To: ZULU
The Koran condones misrepresentation, going back on one's word and "back-stabbing", all in the pursuit of establishing its dominance. So, all a Muslim has to do is convince himself that it is for the ultimate good of Allah and Islam, in order to be at peace with himself. This is why Muslim "leaders" on the international stage, Arrafat, Musharraf, Prince Ibn Saud, et al, have no problem saying one thing and doing another.
45 posted on 06/20/2002 2:24:29 PM PDT by mikeIII
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To: Jeff Chandler
I can't beleive she she said I was a moose!
46 posted on 06/20/2002 2:39:17 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: ZULU
Yep.

"Peace" for Muslims means a world where the only religion in existence is Islam.

47 posted on 06/20/2002 3:10:26 PM PDT by fogarty
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To: rageaholic
For example, suppose in 1939 1936 the Nazi party established a headquarters

The German-American Bund

48 posted on 06/20/2002 3:19:20 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: rageaholic
You are absolutely correct, but just try to frame that analogy to some of these left-coast liberals and you might be facing some hate-crime accusations.
49 posted on 06/20/2002 3:35:32 PM PDT by meadsjn
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To: Madame Dufarge
I am aware of the German American Bund and considered using an earlier date in my hypothetical. However, after 11 September, we have been on full notice and the current scenario more resembles Nazis after the invasion of Poland and Czechoslovakia.

In 39, even Chamberlain knew Hitler was not a "man of peace". Sadly "W" still appears to be laboring under the delusion that Islam is a friendly religeon.

Another scenario would be Communists in small town america in 1955. A damned pity Tom Ridge is no McCarthy.

50 posted on 06/20/2002 5:45:38 PM PDT by rageaholic
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