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Social Reform versus Birth Control [Chesterton 1927]
G.K.Chesterton's Works on the Web ^ | 1927 | G.K. Chesterton

Posted on 06/21/2002 11:04:38 AM PDT by JMJ333

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To: discostu
You're argument is basically.."Stop being a know-it-all and quit trying to force me to behave like you want me to!"

Again...I don't care what you do. I understand where you come from. You're a cynic, who sees nothing of value or a fanatic who see nothing other than themselves to be of value. Innocence allows us to see value wherever it exists. Some people aren't interested in their own reflection or reflections. The attitude is outward.

41 posted on 06/21/2002 4:46:12 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Lamont Cranston
So the morality of birth control is relative in your view?

You asked me about Capitalism. I answered you. Now you ask me if I think birth-control is relative. What do you think? Do you consider that the gist of the article? What did you take from his work?

42 posted on 06/21/2002 4:48:24 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
You asked me about Capitalism. I answered you. Now you ask me if I think birth-control is relative. What do you think? Do you consider that the gist of the article? What did you take from his work?

What's wrong with using birth control to avoid having children that one cannot afford?

43 posted on 06/21/2002 4:52:17 PM PDT by Lamont Cranston
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To: Lamont Cranston
Thank you for asking. There is a direct link between contraception and abortion. I posted this link a while back and it outlines in detail how, when and why there is a definitive link between the two. I appreciate your giving it consideration.

A culture of inverted sexuality

44 posted on 06/21/2002 4:57:35 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Ms. Sanger and Harry Blackmun are no doubt having a lovely conversation about very this topic, from the pit of hell.
47 posted on 06/21/2002 5:26:14 PM PDT by Tourist Guy
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To: JMJ333
Discipline, you call it? Hmmm.....

Suppose I come to you and say "There is something very important you must know... but first, you must refrain from partaking of.... caffeine! It's very important that you give up the caffeine."

So, curious, bored, compelled, intimidated, whatever motivates you, you give up caffeine. You make that psychological investment. And then you turn to me and say "okay, what next?"

Bang. I've got you. You have suspended your own judgment and handed the decisions for your life over to me. At this point, it doesn't matter if I'm Mohammed, Christ, or Ellsworth Toohey. I'm in control of you now. You are awaiting further instructions. You are looking for step 2, and maybe it's Scientology, maybe it's Amway, maybe it's Alcoholics Anonymous, but whatever it is, you are waiting for further instructions.

You're waiting to hear what else you should give up. You're waiting to hear what's going to take its place. You're waiting to hear what your rewards will be. You're waiting to hear what the big secret is. It doesn't matter now if I'm going to demand your attention, your money, or your life. If I can keep you focused on the steps, the details, your daily struggle with those steps, your failures, your small successes... and my evaluation of them... I have you. You have handed yourself over to another.

48 posted on 06/21/2002 5:53:33 PM PDT by Anamensis
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To: JMJ333
Otto Herman Kahn is a prime example of the very wealthy to which Chesterfield refers. Kahn was a supporter of Mussolini and helped finance DW Griffith's racist films. His wife was on the Advisory Council of the American Eugenics Society, on the board of the Margaret Sanger Research Bureau and was Director at Large to the Birth Control Federation of America Inc.

Was Mrs Kahn an altruist? Or was pest control her hobby?

49 posted on 06/21/2002 5:56:42 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: Anamensis
On what basis or foundation do you make your accusation that I am a drone? Because I happen to think that there is a link between abortion and contraception? Or that I find relevence with a particular point of view espoused in the article? Please explain further.

So far, no one has attempted to refute the content of the article...criticize yes...refute no. Want to try? regards.

52 posted on 06/21/2002 6:01:57 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
You're right that is my arguement. And again, if you didn't care you wouldn't have posted this, the very fact that you started this thread and are having this arguement shows that my business with my wife IS important to you; maybe not on the specific level but the general concept that people are having sex and using contraceptives does bother you. I am a cynic but I see lots of things of value, I'm far to lazy to ever be a fanatic. A brain allows you to see value where it exists. Tell oh wise one: what's the value of everybody only ever having sex when they're trying to procreate? Why is it so bad for people to have fun? And don't give me some over syllabled quote from Chesterton, use your own words, plain English.
53 posted on 06/21/2002 6:10:31 PM PDT by discostu
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To: discostu
I don't see why me posting this bothers you so much. You have things that you are interested in--so do I. Would I like you to agree with me? Yes. Will I force you? No. I like to be challenged. I'm sure you do also. regards.
55 posted on 06/21/2002 6:14:38 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: discostu
Tell oh wise one: what's the value of everybody only ever having sex when they're trying to procreate? Why is it so bad for people to have fun? And don't give me some over syllabled quote from Chesterton, use your own words, plain English.

Where did I say you couldn't have fun. Why do you guys get so rude? People had fun before birth control. There does happen to be a medical link between abortion and contraception. There is also some very devious people who push the concept. I think it is interesting to note who they are, and what their opponents have to say.

56 posted on 06/21/2002 6:17:43 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Okay, how's this:

They do not say that the fashionable throng at Ascot wants thinning, or that it is desirable to decimate the people dining at the Ritz or the Savoy.

This attempt to make birth control look like something that the Evil Rich impose upon the Noble Savage is just another way to try and start a class war in best Communist fashion. Poor women are usually avid to get their hands on birth control. Get it? They WANT IT! They don't WANT to have 13 children, lose all their teeth, have a descending uterus and osteoperosis at 37. And don't tell me they should just tell their husbands "no," because in most of these macho cultures, the women have no right to do that. And you KNOW that because you and I have had this conversation before.

57 posted on 06/21/2002 6:19:14 PM PDT by Anamensis
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To: JMJ333
This is excellent. I particularly like his comparison of eating disorders like bulimia, i.e., the partaking of food but spoiling its natural function, nutrition for the body, with that disorder called "birth control,' i.e., partaking of the pleasure of intercourse while spoiling its natural function, procreation.

Didn't some Freeper here use that illustration on threads in the past ;-)

59 posted on 06/21/2002 6:47:52 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: discostu
Tell oh wise one: what's the value of everybody only ever having sex when they're trying to procreate?

One can have sex when they're not "trying to procreate" That is distinctly different from preventing the possibility of procreation from happening. It is possible for couples to have sex and not conceive. There are couples who try to conceive and are not successful on the first try. Although they have had sex and not procreated (initially), they have not sinned either given that they didn't actively prevent conception from occurring and were open to the possibility of children.

Conception occurs with God's help. He is the Creator. The married couple cooperates with God to create a child. Each person is a gift from God. Why do you want to reject gifts from God? Do you think you know better than Him?

ALL Christian denominations, until the early 20th Century, condemned contraception. Should we ditch any other Church teachings that you personally find inconvenient?

60 posted on 06/21/2002 6:49:18 PM PDT by ELS
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