Arizona Burning Because Environmentalists Oppose Thinning The Forests?

msnbc.com ^

[Retired Chemist]

CALL FOR BETTER FOREST MANAGEMENT

Arizona Gov. Jane Hull compared the fire to an out-of-control train at a press conference Sunday in which she highlighted the need to thin the often-dense forest growth amassed after decades of battling wildland blazes. Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats.

“Mother Nature is saying to Arizona and the West, we have got to clean up these forests,” she said. “Nature is telling us that we got to get this under control.”

[Talkwire]

Dr. Bill Wattenburg on KGO has been lashing out at the Eco-Frauds and this topic for years. Here is a link to related artcles on Pushback.com, http://www.pushback.com/enviro nment/forests/

[Political Junkie Too]

Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats.

Oh, like raging forest fires don't disrupt habitats? Actually, they don't disrupt them, the eliminate them completely.

-PJ

[Right Wing Professor]

Sent to: environmental911@sierraclub.org

There is devastating environmental damage going on at the moment in Arizona and Colorado. The major culprits are litigious environmental organizations who have paralyzed forest management practices, leading to build-up of huge quantities of flammable dead materials. Please do something to stop this horror. I suggest Chapter 11.

[concerned about politics]

. Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats.

Too bad all the habitats and those living in them have been burnt alive. The environmentalsist refer to this as "beauty."

“Mother Nature is saying to Arizona and the West, we have got to clean up these forests,” she said. “Nature is telling us that we got to get this under control.”

"Be fruitfull and multiply, and subdue the earth." -- The Holy Bible.

[BlessingInDisguise]

Forests need to burn in order to sustain themselves. The whole ecology of a forest is built around fire. Many types of trees cannot even reproduce if fire does not melt the wax around their seeds. Every forest can use about two major fires every century in order to clear brush and regenerate itself. Otherwise they die.

[kaktuskid]

Unfortunately these fires are burning so hot that they STERILIZE the soil meaning nothing will grow for a long time.

[concerned about politics]

I wonder how the eviro-wacos 'feel' about all this air pollution they've created via their own policies.

[uglybiker]

Please do something to stop this horror. I suggest Chapter 11.

Better suggestion:

Since the human body is approx. 75% water, I'd suggest you and your eco buddies go stand on the fireline. As the intense heat causes your bodies to explode, the resulting release of moisture might be an effective firebreak.

Then again, maybe not. But at least one good thing will come of all this mess.

[chainsaw]

Here's a link to a live cam in the path of the AZ wildfires. It is at the Mogollon Air Park, AZ.

[uglybiker]

YO! If dey wanna 'feel' somtin', I got sometin' dey can feel right here!!

[uglybiker]

Site's not working right now. Must be overloaded.

[ChocChipCookie]

We heard on a local talk radio station that 40% of the BLM's budget goes toward the legal costs involved fighting lawsuits brought by enviro-nazis.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Ping!

[cake_crumb]

"Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats."

Balony. Anyone who has worked out there, for any reason whatsover, knows the devestation that out-of-control wildfires can cause.

This is the SAME, EXACT ENVIROTERRORIST PROPAGANDA BULL $H!T WHICH CAUSED THE DEATHS OF SO MENY PEOPLE IN YELLOWSTONE. Do NOT believe this crap. Uncontollred wildfires not only riun HUMAN life, they commonly ruin ANIMAL life as well. And anyone with an IQ one point above that of a houseplant can guess that the particulates they dump into the atmosphere are not only dangerous to humans (Briton, hoof and mouth, 2000) but can effect the climate for years to come (BLIZZARDS 19993-19994 - MOUNT PINATUBO COMBINED WITH SADDAM HUSSEIN'S OIL WELL FIRES IN KUWAITE)

Err...calming down now....what exactly IS it with this current inundation of environazi propaganda we are suddenly recieving???

[Clara Lou]

I've flipped past CNN today several times. The Sierra Club and the other enviro-weenies are really taking some hits. The same has been going on all day on FOX News channel. Now, if only we could get them to foot the bill for the millions of lost dollars.

[B4Ranch]

You are the only other person I have seen write about the destroyed habitat. Poor animals, I wonder how many tons of carcasses are laying there becoming part of the soil? Then there is the endangered plant life.

Why aren't the tree huggers moaning these losses?

[MissAmericanPie]

Sue the letigious environmental organizations blind, drain and empty their bank accounts until they resemble the Salt Flats. Sue those that have contributed to these organizations, drain their pockets dry, hold them up to public scorn, jail them.

[cake_crumb]

"The whole ecology of a forest is built around fire. Many types of trees cannot even reproduce if fire does not melt the wax around their seeds"

Yeah, the Jackson Pine. Big deal. Controlled burns CAN be an aid to the overall health of forests in general, I agree...HOWEVER when the fuel outweighs the living flora it is nothing but a recipe for ecological and economical disaster.

The probelm with the environazis is that they are so totally brainwashed that they are able to see the "forest" - which is a microcosm - that they cannot see the "trees" - each individual of which is important to the continuing functioning of that particular microcosm.

We have gone from one extreme - the farming of the macrocosm - to the other - being so centered upon the macricosm that we fail to see the individuals which comprise it. Human beings, like it or not, no matter what end of the ideological scale you are on, are an integral PART of that macrocosm. We are neither "husbands" of the earth, nor it's "shepards". We're every bit as much a part of the food chain as everything else on this planet, and I'm tired of being told we don't have as much right to be here as everynody else. Walk out into the woods and meet a cougar or a bear. Puts things into perspective IMMEDIATELY.

Wolves, BTW are different. They are social animals more like us...which is why our ancestors were able to turn them into the ancestors of the modern dog.

[ClassicConservative]

OK, who thinned the forests for the millions of years before we were there?

[Let's Roll]

"I wonder how the eviro-wacos 'feel' about all this air pollution they've created via their own policies."

We're coughing and hacking all the way over in Albuquerque - air quality warnings on all the newscasts - can't even see the mountains just outside of town - all this is smoke from Arizona fires.

[Ben Hecks]

'Now, if only we could get them to foot the bill for the millions of lost dollars."

This would also seem to be an appropriate time to bring legal action against the Sierra Club and any other organization that has contributed to this mess - saddle them with a liability judgement that would close their doors forever.

[cake_crumb]

"Why aren't the tree huggers moaning these losses?"

THAT is a d@mned good question.

I've always been into conservation in one way or another. Hubby, a Hotshot and also typically a logger, sprouts oak trees on our sunporch. Which we solomnly and without media fanfare PLANT.

I know where you're coming from. Shame that the people who are sooooo demonized by the environazis are the ones with the true love of our outdoors...and those who hug trees - well, if you dropped a treehugger in the middle of the woods, in the middle of a thousand miles of nowhere, could he/she find his/her way out?

(Rhetorical question)

[cake_crumb]

"I wonder how the eviro-wacos 'feel' about all this air pollution they've created via their own policies."

They don't care. It's not part of the POLITICAL agenda.

That's what is so weird and chilling. They didn't care in Briton, while griping about President Bush scrapping Kyoto...and allthewhile they had "alerts" out as people became sick from walking out of their doors and breathing the smoke from THOUSANDS of burning, deisel soaked animals. No one questioned the discrepancy then. No one will question it now.

Besides, we're talking about a bunch who have no problem with releasing thousands of tons of particulates into the atmosphere as they torch a lot full of SUV's (rubber tires, gas filled tanks ) or an entire forest that THEY feel is genetically incompatible with their ideals. Double standards can be SOOOOOO convenient.

[uglybiker]

[DuncanWaring]

who thinned the forests for the millions of years before we were there?

Regular lightning-sparked fires, I would presume.

[Retired Chemist]

OK, who thinned the forests for the millions of years before we were there?

Natural occurring forest fires

[Retired Chemist]

FNC reports that 40% of the Forest Service budget is used defending against legal actions brought by environmental groups!

[ClassicConservative]

Oh, you mean it wasn't enviro-whacko's doing it before the invention of language (or roads, or manufactured fire)? Gee, who'da thunk it?

[SSN558]

Controlled fires can easily get out of control and pollute the atmosphere. Selective logging creates jobs, houses the homeless, and makes the forest healthy. Why do enviro wackos always promote solutions that are in themselves a bigger problem to society and harm the environment ? Why ?

If the Sierria club was what the pretend to be they would be lobbying for logging and trying to stop the burning.

[cake_crumb]

Consider the Trees. They Have no Legs to Run With

ROFLOL...never thought about the poor stationary buggers that way...

I have this theory about treehuggers though: they are soo far out in left field that they are in danger of falling out of Earth's atmosphere unless they hug the treetops....ANCHORS, don'tcha know.

[Retired Chemist]

Pine cones release their seeds when heated! That should tell you something about nature's plan for the forests!

[PhilDragoo]

The haze is in the eyes, blurring.

The throat cannot be quenched.

Sunrise is orange, sunset red, the full moon yellow.

In May of 2000 Bandelier National Monument director Roy Weaver lit a "controlled burn" the night of the new moon with high winds and low humidity--burning 50,000 acres and evacuating Los Alamos National Laboratories.

We must immediately place all lands in the stewardship of the Federal Bureaucracy-EnviroNGO Janus (rhymes with anus).

[cake_crumb]

"FNC reports that 40% of the Forest Service budget is used defending against legal actions brought by environmental groups!"

Yes...that sounds about right...last I checked in 2000. .....GUESS WHEN THE ENVIRONAZI LAWSUITS BECAME SUCH POWEREFUL AND DRAINING (to the taxpayer) POLITICAL TOOLS??? Yep, you guessed the WillyGore "Cars are the root of all evil" administration. That's when they reached the peak.

This year's ENORMOUS and SPECIFIC increases in the forestry (USDA) budget are to cover the environazi lawsuits....and to cover the expenses of fighting the physical damage they cause.

[cake_crumb]

"If the Sierria club was what the pretend to be they would be lobbying for logging and trying to stop the burning"

...But then they'd be like "US", wouldn't they...and maybe...just maybe...they could survive out here in the woods, with the wolves and the mountain lions and the bears and the (allegedly endangered) rattlesnakes....

Dont hold your breath.

[crz]

The seedlings from pine cones can be also planted by hand. Or has that escaped your thought? Play with fire and you will get burned. We've tried the extremists way. Now hit the highway and let the forest be taken care of by those who know how, meaning the logging industry. So to all you wacky extremists..get lost.

[crz]

Fire is not now a viable management tool. Nor should it ever been made a management tool. With the types of forest management offered and practiced in this day and age there is no reason to see it used....EVER!

[cake_crumb]

"In May of 2000 Bandelier National Monument director Roy Weaver lit a "controlled burn" the night of the new moon with high winds and low humidity--burning 50,000 acres and evacuating Los Alamos National Laboratories"

Bless you for bringing up the ugly truth.

This year, the wildfire season MAY be better becaue money to train firefighters wasn't WASTED to AQUIRE hundreds of thousands of acres of land to begin with.

[Retired Chemist]

Periodic natural forset fires thin the forest floor without massive damage to the forest! Stopping these fires causes the tinder to increase and results in the massive disasterous fires we are seeing!

[Paulus Invictus]

You've bought the enviro's forest control prevarication. It's taught in every school and college. The govt has bought it too and post signs and send out press releases all saying that what you claim is the truth. Forests do burn due to lightning strikes and careless campers or arsonists etc, but they burn a lot hotter and over far more acres when the dead fuel underneath the trees is not cleared and the trees are not killed by bark beetles.

[cake_crumb]

"Periodic natural forset fires thin the forest floor without massive damage to the forest! Stopping these fires causes the tinder to increase and results in the massive disasterous fires we are seeing!"

Take rake and go out and rake all the fuell up off the forest floors. When lightening stikes, it'll light up all the pine trees, which will then go BOOOOM!

The stuff on the forest floor retains moisture. It's compost. That is not what is burning. What is burning is the dead, dry limbs and trees...deadfall due to overgrowth and lack of sunlight and nutrients.

The fires are burning on the TOP of the forest, jumping from treetop to treetop, and is called a "flashover". It is fuelled by the deadfall underneath...and the damp, composted leaves underneath give off methane, which is explosive and causes a updraft which makes fires jump for miles.

When the ground shakes and explodes...when the ground literally burns, you'll know.

(Hubby)

[crz]

The same thing can be done in a controled manner...its called logging. Or is that to far out for some to understand. Want to know what tree length skidding simulates? It simulates BURN! What happens when you drag a tree over the ground? You disrupt the very tinder you so advocate burning. After you replant. Is that so hard to understand?

[cake_crumb]

"What happens when you drag a tree over the ground? You disrupt the very tinder you so advocate burning."

Actually, when skidding, the disruption of the ground is limited to the area the tree is drug over. The tinder is pushed over to the sides. By logging, you open up an area so that young growth can flourish over the dead, dry tinder....making a natural firebreak. If a natural fire DOES break out, you have the access roads so you can get in to fight the fire.

You are trying to describe "treefarming", also known as "timber management". Pennsylvania has very GOOD timber management programs.

PA DNCR

NE PA Urban/Community Forestry Demo Program

(Hubby)

[rstevens]

True, but humans, many years ago, figured out how nature worked and was able to replenish the trees in areas where they were harvested.

This not only provided a continual growth, but for years provided fire breaks to reduce the spreading of fires set by natural causes.

A big problem now is that all of the logging roads have been overgrown and now it is impossible to effectively fight these raging fires.

We need to get back to letting commercial evdeavors, big logging and paper corporations, cut off the overgrowth, replant and manage the timber areas, as they did in the past.

[Retired Chemist]

An environmentalist who just appeared on FNC said that roads in the forest increase the risk of fire because they allow the public access!

[crz]

Looks as if there is another logger on here. Just got done watching O'Rielly. He had a nature nut on there who said that if we allow logging on these lands we will be subsidizing the logging. Now I didnt know that by bidding on public timber that I was being subsidized. I wonder when that happened..and where is my subsidized money?
Now to all you who think the same. THE TIMBER IS OFFERED UP ON BIDS! IT GOES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER! IT IS LOGGED AND IF THE SALE COMES UP SHORT OF THE CRUISE, YOU DONE LOST THE DIFF'...in other words you paid for timber that was not there, and it does happen often! It is the loggers job to inspect the sales to determine if the timber cruised and offered is there or not. Does that sound like a subsidy? Only on scale sales do you not ever come up short...although I could tell you of some horror stories on scale sales also.
So, now lets put a pencil to it. There is what? Some 300 thousand acres burned? lets say 60% is/was merc timber. At about 450.00 per thousand for framing lumber wholesale and the timber runs at about 1500 bd ft per acre that would = what (conservative figures)? How much has this one fire cost in revenue overall..not just logging but at the mill?. Heck, lets include homes that could have been built and the construction jobs and the tires for the equipment to log, the trucking the fuel delivery jobs the stores the sawmill/forest products plant jobs and on and on. Not to mention the property damage! Millions upon millions have been wasted by the result of listening to these eco-extremists.

[cake_crumb]

"An environmentalist who just appeared on FNC said that roads in the forest increase the risk of fire because they allow the public access!"

Oh for crying out loud....somebody tell that moron (whoever he is) to let the forestry department go crashing through the brush with Unimogs to access the fire and create firebreaks....THEN HE WILL SEE ROADS!!!! ROADS!!

(Cake AND Hubby)

[driftless]

The same theory applies to prairies. Park rangers in many prairie states burn portions of prairies in controlled fires every year.

[Ken H]

Does anyone know how the amount of pollution from these fires compares to a large volcanic eruption?

[cake_crumb]

I can tell some tales about scale sales too. (You've obviously been there and done that)

What you scale and what THEY scale aren't necessarily the same thing.

What you grade as a number one, they might grade as a two.

What you say is a thousand board feet, THEY can say is only 900. You can walk a stand of timber and figure there is 100,000 board feet of number one and number two, but you might get two or three vaneer trees and the rest firewood. You don't know until you cut it...even if you bore-test it.

The only thing enviro wackos know about trees is that they have leaves on them. They don't even know what SPECIES they are.

We did test plots for the NY State forestry department. We made a grid, like a checkerboard. Some we clear cut, some we didn't touch, some we took out only the good trees and left the junk, some we took only junk and left the good trees....some we fenced off and some we didn't, to check deer damage. Some we reseeded, some we didn't. The whole area....near Naples NY was a conservation area...a ten-year experiment in timber management.

The ten years is about up now. I have to get back up there and see for myself what the results were.

(Hubby)