Africa grapples with Romans 13

UPI ^ | July 3, 2002 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The Catholic Church IS the living authority of the New Testament she wrote every single word of.

I agree that the Universal (i.e., Catholic) Church was used by God to bring the Bible into the world...

But the private interpretation of many that the the Universal Church is centered in Rome, and is accoutable to the "authority" of the Pope, is a personal opinion found no-where in Scripture. Peter himself certainly did not believe any such thing, as Peter's most ancient biographers uniformly acknowledge.

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In fact, good interpretive evidence for something very dramatic happening after Jesus’ crucifixion lies in the very fact that Jesus’ brothers didn't believe who He was (would your brothers?) until the resurrection (which would convince anyone!). Suddenly, the oldest surviving sibling is the head of the Jerusalem Assembly of Jesus Movement Jews. -- Jack Kilmon, History and the New Testament
• Clement, the bishop of Alexandria (150 - 215 CE), who confirms in Outlines, Bk. VI: "Peter, James (bar Zebedee) and John, after the ascension of the Saviour, did not claim pre-eminence because the Saviour had especially honored them, but chose James the Righteous as Bishop of Jerusalem."
• Eusebius (263 - 339 CE), Historia Ecclesia ii,23.4: ".....turned their attention to James, the Lord's brother, who had been elected by the apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem."
• Hegesippus (c. 100 - 160 CE), Bk 5: "Control of the Church passed to the Apostles, together with the Lord's brother James...."
• Origen (185 - 254 CE), quoting early Josephus: "These things happened to the Jews in requital for James the Righteous, who was a brother of Jesus, known as Christ."
• Josephus (37 - c. 100 CE), Antiquities xx: "So he assembled a counsel of judges and brought before it James, the brother of Jesus, known as Christ."
• Clement: "When James the Righteous had suffered martyrdom like the Lord and for the same reason, Symeon, the son of his Uncle Clopas, was appointed bishop. He being a cousin of the Lord."
• Eusebius: "A group of heretics accused the descendants of Jude...the brother, humanly speaking, of the Savior...on the ground that they were of David's line and related to Christ himself."

The ecclesiastical accounts of the primitive Jewish "Church" can be found in the writings of Eusebius and Epiphanius which themselves can be traced to the "Hypomnemata" of Hegesippus. Hegesippus apparently belonged to the Jerusalem Assembly, calling it "the Ekklesia" and was able to impart (according to Eusebius) a great deal of information not contained in the NT. In these accounts we learn that James (Y`shua's brother) was the first overseer ("bishop") of the Assembly ("Church") and following his death Simeon, the son of Alfai/Clopas (Joseph's brother and Jesus' uncle) was installed as overseer. This same information also came to Eusebius from another source. Since Hegesippus learned this from direct contact with the apostolic Jewish Christians and the yet living relatives of Y`shua, the historically careful Eusebius trusted the information. The choice of relatives of Jesus known as the DESPOSYNOI, "The Sons of the House," is in keeping with Jewish family feelings and practices and messianic principal. The Jewish followers of Jesus were not only misunderstood but actually slandered by Greek and Roman gentile Christians who, due to cultural differences, did not understand Jesus’ messiahship within the Jewish context. It would have been expected that Jesus’ closest male kinsmen would be nearest the "Throne" of the coming messiah. It is within this context that the discourse between Jesus and the Zebedee boys takes place (Mark 10:35). Salome, the mother of the sons of Zebedee (James and John) was Mary's sister (John 19:25), therefore Jesus’ cousins, James and John had expectations of dynastic privilege.... This dynastic succession of episcopacy is also suggested by Eusebius account of the descendants of Jude (another of Jesus' siblings) after their return from trial by Domitian as they stood "at the head of every Church." -- Jack Kilmon, History and the New Testament

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Peter himself did not believe in "Petrine Supremacy"; rather, Peter reported to James (Acts 12:17) and Peter obeyed James (Acts 15: 13-22) and Peter deferred to James (Acts 21:18) and Peter feared James (Galatians 2:12). What kind of Petrine "Papacy" is this!!

In fact, not a single verse of Scripture suggests any kind of "Petrine Succession", and such a dogma was NOT the practice of the Early Church:

In the epistles (epitomes) attached to the Homilies, Peter calls James "the Lord and bishop of the Holy Church" (tw kuriw kai episkopw thV agiaV ekklhsiaV, to kurio kai episkopo ths agias eklhsias) and Clement addresses him as "the lord, and bishop of bishops (domino et episcopo episcoporum), who rules Jerusalem, the holy Church of the Hebrews and Churches everywhere excellently founded by the provinces of God, with elders and deacons, and the rest of the brethren." ~~ (GLIMPSES OF JEWISH CHRISTIANITY FROM THE END OF ACTS TO JUSTIN MARTYR (A.D. 62-150), J. Julius Scott, Jr, Wheaton College)

Your entire religious superstructure is founded upon an erroneous "private interpretation"... a Lie.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Wrong. This passage has nothing to do with secular government but with church government. To believe otherwise ignores the context of the chapter and requires one to believe that God endorsed Hitler, Stalin, etc. as His ministers.

No, Romans 13:1-10 is about Civil Government, and it certainly does not endorse Hitler or Stalin. Why? Because the Government is a minister for the punishment of Evil and the respect of Good. What is "Evil"? Murder, Adultery, Theft, Fraud, Coercion. The Civil Government is to punish these things.

A Government which does not punish Evil and respect Good, is not a Romans 13 "Good Government" and therefore does not enjoy the Romans 13 authority Paul recognizes for "Good Governments".

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Oops!! Ping to #41.

Of course, #41 raises the side issue of just what sort of Elected Authority the bishop James enjoyed over the other Apostles. I suspect that a Presbyterian would read Acts 15 as a Presbyterian Synod, while a Baptist might counter that it is quite obviously a Baptist Convention... minus the egg salad.

[George W. Bush]

I suspect that a Presbyterian would read Acts 15 as a Presbyterian Synod, while a Baptist might counter that it is quite obviously a Baptist Convention... minus the egg salad.

I'd already read and enjoyed your #41.

And it ain't a Baptist Convention without the egg salad and the potluck.

Did you know the Last Supper was something of a potluck?

[Eagle Eye]

"For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God."

This doesn't give any indication that good powers are of God, but bad powers aren't. All powers, good or bad.

Again, look at the context. You seem to know womething about the Bible, so tell me where the verse and chapter divisions are in the 'originals'. Going from chapters 10 through 15 the context is NOT about secular or civil systems, but those of believers, iow, the church.

To say that all powers, including Hitler and Stalin, are of God is absurd. To say that all ministers (governing authorities in the Body) are of God makes perfect sense.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I have always thought that when the people are corrupt, Christians should continue to submit to even a bad government- because you cannot impose righteous government on an unrighteous people- they don't want it. When corrupt leaders are over a people who are more righteous than they, God is more likely to authorize a Jehu-type to clean house.

Agree totally.

[headsonpikes]

Your posts are compellingly informative and well-reasoned, even if a little triumphal.

Oliver Cromwell bump! ;^)

(THE precursor of the American Revolution, imo).

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your posts are compellingly informative and well-reasoned, even if a little triumphal.

A "little" triumphal.... lol.... I'm afraid that's putting it kindly. ;-)

Oh well, we all have our stylistic foibles.

[185JHP]

Wonderful stuff - and the only way we know the "faithful contendings" we ought to get involved in is through the perfect work of the Holy Spirit!

[agrandis]

Very interesting post. I think most American Christians embrace one extreme ("quietism") or the other (Christian utopianism). Too many Christians are wrapped up in a detrimental belief that the "spiritual" is all that matters, and that most events and actions on earth are not "spiritual." Many others believe that there is a political solution to sin. Both are horribly wrong.

Chesterton: "The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right."

[Richard Kimball]

only the bravest and most Biblical Christians risk ministering in Communist countries. But once the day of freedom comes, the 5-star, jet-setting, hyper, turbo boosted evangelists pour in.

This is SOOOOOOOOOO true. You don't see many Benny Hinn trips to Haiti, but I'll guarantee you there are a bunch of those fundamentalists the press loves to make fun of out there running clinics, drilling water wells and starting schools. Real faith is required to be in those places. BTW, if the name it, claim it, and frame it guys are right, Paul really got a raw deal: "For I will show him how he must suffer for my name"

Hang in there. Brilliant post.

[Jerry_M]

Interesting program, "Bible Thumper" as well as a thumbs up for not caring what people think! (After all, isn't "Bible Thumper" supposed to be an insult in today's society?)

You must have a hi-powered Palm device, my poor little Palm III doesn't have enough room for a program of this complexity. I do have "My Bible" on my Palm, and even though it doesn't have all the tools of "Bible Thumper", it works for me. I especially like the search feature, as it allows me to have a concordance with me at all times.

You might be a little disappointed to hear that I ordered the optional NASB for my Palm, even though the KJV was included at no extra cost. I still use the NASB for most of my Bible study, a habit that I developed many years ago. However, as you have noticed, I always use KJV when quoting Scripture on FR, and also include the KJV in my weekly church bulletins. I wouldn't dare getting into the pulpit without knowing what the KJV has to say about the passage I am expositing, as well as knowing the reason for any (rarely any) difference between it and the NASB.

[Catholicguy]

I prefer real history rather than fabulous tales. This site addresses actual facts about the Papacy.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS 4.HTM

[Catholicguy]

I prefer real history rather than fabulous tales. This site addresses actual facts about the Papacy.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/ERASMUS 4.HTM

[George W. Bush]

Interesting program, "Bible Thumper" as well as a thumbs up for not caring what people think! (After all, isn't "Bible Thumper" supposed to be an insult in today's society?)

It's $25 and worth it. BibleThumper is made here in Nebraska so I can even be a nativist about it... Check out the Online Demo. It brings up a Java-powered Palm IIIc simulator and shows you how the progam works. Once you buy the program (the basic KJV Bible), you can install as many or as few of the extras as you like.

Man, am I hooked on this little thing. I've never used Bible study programs or commentaries or ebooks much on my computer but this PDA has really changed that.

You must have a hi-powered Palm device, my poor little Palm III doesn't have enough room for a program of this complexity. I do have "My Bible" on my Palm, and even though it doesn't have all the tools of "Bible Thumper", it works for me. I especially like the search feature, as it allows me to have a concordance with me at all times.

I've got a 16M Handspring Visor Pro, 33mHz Dragonball 68K processor and added a MemPlug CF expander to it and a 256M Sandisk flash cartidge (which I can also use on most any digital camera). I've got all that stuff I listed and a version of Word and Excel and tons of other stuff and it's still not half-full!!!!! The only drawback is that the external memory card isn't quite as fast as main memory but that generally means a slow launch of the program and then it runs at virtually full speed after that.

The good part is that these devices are getting cheaper and cheaper. An expanded one like mine will be less than $200 in a year or so (I paid $230 for my basic Visor Pro 16M a few months ago and it's already down to $200). I know of a sound Reformed Southern Baptist preacher in Florida who's writing a book on his (I suspect a Puritan biography). I just had to laugh when he used the phrase "Calvinistic Baptists, gun-toting, PDA-using!" in an email. I bet that sounds a little familiar to you. You'd like this guy and his church, I think. He's in sales in his day job and has the Mapopolis maps for his 10 county area in his Visor Prism w/128Mbytes.

You might be a little disappointed to hear that I ordered the optional NASB for my Palm, even though the KJV was included at no extra cost. I still use the NASB for most of my Bible study, a habit that I developed many years ago. However, as you have noticed, I always use KJV when quoting Scripture on FR, and also include the KJV in my weekly church bulletins. I wouldn't dare getting into the pulpit without knowing what the KJV has to say about the passage I am expositing, as well as knowing the reason for any (rarely any) difference between it and the NASB.

Actually, NASB is my #2. I only fault a few passages in it and I think the chances of fatal doctrine arising from NASB readings to be vanishingly small. And NASB is in some places easier to understand, in the Old Testament especially. If I could get the author to include it, I'd like to have NASB in my BibleThumper for reference. Naturally, I could not welcome the NIV, Living Bible, Good News Bible, etc.

[Catholicguy]

You picked the wrong battlefield for this fight. I have William A Jurgens "The Faith of the Early Fathers" in my home library.
I will NOT engage in a point by point refutation of your falsehoods. I will merely cite your first error re Clement. In his "Who is the rich man that is saved?", a.d. 190/210, St. Clement of Alexandria says this about Peter..."On hearing these words, the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminnent, the first among he disciples, for whom alone with Himself the Savior paid the tribute, quickly grasped their meaning..."
Cribbing from second hand sources to attack Divinely-constituted authority might seem "Triumphalistic" to some but it is a truimphalism of a very odd sort.
I will not waste my time "debating" such rudimentary facts. Lets those with eyes to see read. The writings of the Catholic Church Fathers are availaable at www.newadvent.com

[Catholicguy]

Catholic Church Fathers link


http://www.newadvent.org/fathe rs/

[Jerry_M]

In order to fit "My Bible" as well as all the stuff I need for work on my Palm III I need to utilize FlashPro in order to give me another ~696k. That brings me up to a "whopping" 2.6 meg. machine.

I have just purchased a Palm IIIx with keyboard at an online auction, and this will give me (with FlashPro) 4.6 meg. Then the Palm III will become a work machine, left in the office to do time tracking and schedule appointments, and the IIIx will become a "Jerry" machine with my Bible, some good reformed docs, and some ham radio software.

[Catholicguy]

St. Ireneaus link stating Catholic Church is where the truth is found. My last link. I could multiply SCORES of links proving the truth but some prefer their own ideas over objective truth rendering "debate" nugatory.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathe rs/0103304.htm

[Catholicguy]

"Peter alone do I find--through (the mention of) his "mother-in-law",--to have been married. Monogamist I am led to presume him by consideration of the Church, which, built upon him, was destined to appoint every grade of her Order from monogamists".

LOL Sorry, couldn't resist Tertullian's 213 a.d. witness (Monogamy) that the Catholic Church was built upon Peter...I promise no more:) It is all there for those that care about the truth