BOEING RESPONDS TO FBI REPORT

7/10/02 | John E. Fiorentino

[eno_]

I do not think there was any evidence in the wreckage of an aluminum fire. It is possible but it happens most often as a result of fire started by munitions, on ships hit by missiles, for example. And even then, the odds of that fire involving, say, a Breitling wristwatch or a Callaway titanium golf club seems on the far side of unlikely. Too bad the article provides such a lousy description of the artifacts.

[JohnFiorentino]

What would you like me to do?........Make up a description?.....The description posted came from the Brookhaven National Labroratories report. If you feel it is "lousy" perhaps you should write or call and let them know.

[eno_]

OK maybe I'm stupid, but a "not metallic" pellet containing Al and Ti? Is it or ain't it? Aluminum is a conductor, but it's non-conductive?

There is some public information on what is used in SAM warheads, but it is not possible (for me, anyway) to make a clear ID based on this info, as valuable and intrguiging as it is.

[Rokke]

"I do not think there was any evidence in the wreckage of an aluminum fire."

Actually, the final report specifically states wreckage recovered in the "green zone" included melted wiring and aluminum materials.

[eno_]

An aluminum fire is quite another thing. Like a magnesium fire, but much harder to start and much MUCH hotter than molten aluminum, and the only even remotely plausible way to melt titanium. There was no burning aluminum in the wreckage.

[VectoRama]

Here's some details from Insight on the pellets found in some Flight 800 victims:

According to Stalcup, "More than that, we have information that shows that 20 unusual .2-inch-diameter round pellets that were found in bodies were withheld from the NTSB but analyzed by the FBI and found to have been made of aluminum titanium matrix and other elements like zirconium, barium and cerium. These are pyrotechnics or incendiary devices, and the matrix structure of these objects is consistent with pellets used in antiaircraft missiles."

The FIRO chairman continues: "In fact, I found a quote in National Defense magazine that was referring to warheads that said 'pellets imbedded in titanium matrix' are used in antiaircraft warheads. The 'secret' [Brookhaven] report analysis concluded that the origin of the pellets is 'unknown' and that one of the pellets was submitted for identification because of its dissimilarity in appearance with TWA 800 debris. ...'"

The Brookhaven report on the pellets was just posted
http://www.twa800.com/pdf/brookhaven-report.pdf

[Rokke]

Consistent with pellets used WHERE in antiaircraft missiles, and which missiles? Sorry, but this is just baloney. Note the complete lack of actual sources or details. "I found a quote in a National Defense magazine"?!?!?! Give me a break. This is flawed guesswork by non-experts desparately trying to find something to base their faulty theories on. Neither the fuel, explosive or warheads of antiaircraft missiles are composed of pellets.

[VectoRama]

The pellets were "transparent" but the reference Stalcup seems to refer to is talking about "tungsten pellets embedded in a titanium matrix". Wouldn't tungsten pellets be solid steel?

I have seen web pages that mention pellets used in warheads to add the explosive effect. An important point is that all the elements in the pellets are used in explosives. This page does not mention warheads but mentions a lot of the elements the pellets were composed of.....

PYROTECHNICS, PROPELLANTS AND EXPLOSIVES

Fire generators, for domestic use (matches, fuel pellets for field stoves) or military purpose (incendiary grenades).
· Heat generators. Aluminium has already been mentioned as an incendiary metal. Other incendiary metals include zirconium, magnesium, titanium, and depleted uranium. http://imartinez.etsin.upm.es/bk3/c15/Pyrotechnics.htm

[VectoRama]

This page lists ALL the elements which the pellets found in victims were composed of under "Propellants, Explosives and Pyrotechnics."

http://www.blazetech.com/ADORA/Chemical_List/Propellants__etc_/propellants__etc_.html

Considering that the pellets were not from the jet, how is this not proof that some kind of explosive device was involved in the crash?

[Asmodeus]

"The Brookhaven report on the pellets was just posted. http://www.twa800.com/pdf/brookhaven-report.pdf "

Huh?

A Brief Summary of a Declassified FBI Report Subject: The analysis of evidence with possible high energy characteristics at the Brookhaven National Laboratory Tom Stalcup, Feb. 20, 2002

[VectoRama]

"The Brookhaven report on the pellets was just posted. http://www.twa800.com/pdf/brookhaven-report.pdf "

Huh?

If you dig just a little deeper you'll find that the actual Brookhaven report starts on page 4.

[JohnFiorentino]

Now why would Elmer Asmodeous Barr want to do that?.........He is much more interested in elevating minutia to a higher sphere.

[Junior]

All right so what is your best guess? Counterfit parts?

Aliens done it.

[JohnFiorentino]

R.I.P. 7/17/96

"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs." -- Mt 10:26-27

At approximately 8:31pm edt., July 17, 1996 TWA Fl.800 out of Kennedy International Airport, exploded and crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off East Moriches, LI. Of the 230 men, women and children aboard the ill fated flight, none survived.

Now, six years later, on the anniversary of the crash, lingering doubts still remain.

The official version of what happened that night places the blame on a "spark" of unknown origin which ignited the fuel vapors in the plane's nearly empty Center Wing Tank. Many choose not to believe this scenario.

After a controversial four year long investigation by the NTSB, assisted by other federal agencies, we have arrived at this point in time, the sixth anniversary of the crash.

This short editorial will not be a critique of that investigation, nor a news item presenting fresh evidence. For today, it somehow seems inappropriate to become embroiled in the continuing controversy that is the Fl800 mystery. Today, is a day to remember. A day to remember the 230 souls who lost their lives. A day to remember champions of the truth, like Cmdr. William S. Donaldson, USN/Ret., who himself passed away in 2001. His brother Bob Donaldson continues in his brothers footsteps. He dutifully maintains the website dedicated to the Fl800 mystery at http://www.twa800.com.

Yes, today we remember. It matters not whether you believe the official version of events, whether you agree with all that Cmdr. Donaldson and others had, and have to say, or whether you sit on the proverbial fence. What matters today, is that we remember.

My deepest sympathies go out to the victims and families of the TWA800 disaster, and to Cmdr. Donaldson, and his family, a victim simply of life’s end. You are not forgotten. The search for the truth continues.

---

Copyright 2002, John E. Fiorentino

[Rokke]

The pellets could have come from anything, including the engines or something in the cargo hold. However, they did not come from a missile. The image of an anti-air missile warhead filled with small metallic spheres is not at all accurate. Missile warheads are carefully designed to destroy their intended target. Their designs are very complex, and engineered to maximize the destructive effects of a relatively small amount of explosive and warhead material. That does not include shaking several BB sized pellets into the casing to fill up any extra space. The fragments that impact the target are formed when the warhead casing explodes. They are formed by scoring the inside of the warhead casing with a waffle type pattern to ensure they are the proper size to do the most damage. Not only are the pellets described in this thread too small, but it would be impossible for an exploding warhead to form spherical pellets when it explodes.
Yes, several of the elements described in the reference can be used in explosives or pyrotechnics. But they can also be used in a lot of other things more commonly found in an aircraft, its engines, or even simple electronic equipment. The report does not draw any conclusions about where the material may have come from, which is apparently an open invitation to assume they are some form of otherwise unidentified explosive. Last time I heard about Barium, it was used in enemas, which is probably appropriate for the article that started this thread, because the theories it has generated have a lot to do with $%it.

[JohnFiorentino]

Apparently you never read the thread. If you did, you would quickly realize that your statement re: the spheres possibly coming from the engines makes no sense. Unless of course YOU know more about a Boeing 747 than Boeing does.

If you bothered to read Boeing's reply to the FBI report, which I believe has SOMETHING to do with the title of this thread, you will notice that Boeing says in effect, whatever the spheres are, they DIDN'T come from the aircraft.

---

BARIUM
Name origin: Greek: barys (heavy or dense).
Description: Soft, slightly malleable, silvery-white metal.
Discovered by: Sir Humphrey Davy
Year: 1808
Place: England
Sources: Found in barytine (BaSO4) and witherite (BaCO3), never found in pure form due to its reactivity. Must be stored under kerosene to remain pure.
Use(s): Barite, or barium sulfate (BaSO4), when ground is used as a filter for rubber, plastics, and resins. It is insoluable in water and so is used in X-rays of the digestive system. Barium nitrate, Ba(NO3)2, burns brilliant green and is used in fireworks

[Rokke]

I think it is pretty clear I've read the thread. The letter you received discusses the actual aircraft. Note the temperature range he mentions concerns the aircraft skin. You may want to send your letter to a GE or Pratt & Whitney engineer and see what they say. Or maybe you could get a cargo manifest from the flight, and see if anything in the cargo hold might have been the source. But here is a better idea...
Why don't you send your letter to every possible missile engineer you can find and try to determine which missile could be responsible for creating 5mm, transparant, non-metallic spheres. Call me silly, but if you are looking for the origin of something, why not go right to the source of where you think your something came from.

[JohnFiorentino]

Did I say they came from a missile?........How could you possibly be aware of the sources I have or will consult?....I believe Boeing is quite familiar with what types of engines are on it's planes.......And why would I be interested in a cargo manifest?........Do you think something went "bang" in there?.......Or maybe we should check out the overhead bin that Tobin was directed to investigate?......Were there signs of an "explosion" in the passenger cabin?.......If not, how do you suppose those people got peppered with these pellets?......Are you familiar with all the different variations of explosive or incendiary devices?......Did William Tobin have any experience examining aircraft wrecks after immersion in salt water?......Where DID the PETN and RDX come from...certainly NOT from the "dog training exercise" as we have been led to believe.....Why does NTSB still refuse to release the autopsy reports?......IF the source of the pellets WAS the cargo hold, how do you suppose people in the passenger cabin wound up with pellets embedded in their bodies IF the explosion took place in the CWT, portions of which are BELOW the passenger cabin?....The NTSB sequencing report gives no clue as to how contents from the cargo hold might be found in victims bodies....does it?

[backhoe]

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[Rokke]

Sorry, I've been away from the computer for a couple days. You ask a lot of questions and I'll try to offer a few answers. First, no you didn't say the pellets came from a missile, but that seems to be the consensus of this thread and of many TWA 800 conspiracy theorists. Your point in all this seems to be there is no logical explaination for the mystery pellets outside of some covered up explosion. I am merely pointing out to you that there are several less sinister possiblities than a missile or a bomb, and the response you shared from the Boeing engineer doesn't exclude any of those possiblities. Jet engines make extensive use of titanium, tungsten, aluminium alloys, etc etc etc..
One doesn't even have to read the NTSB report to understand there was an extensive break up and fire as TWA 800 destructed. As has already been discussed in this thread, it is not beyond the realm of possiblity for melting, burning metal from anywhere on the aircraft to form small pellets that found their way into passengers. You say the passengers were peppered, but from the info you've offered it appears only 20 pellets were found.
You must have a theory concerning these pellets. Share it, and then take the next step and offer some evidence to support that theory. It appears you think they originate from some explosive device. What was it?