BlackHawk Down Why Liberals should not be CIC

me | 8/22/02 | Freethinkingman

[Travis McGee]

The problem wasn't the rifle, it was the ammo. The old higher velocity 55 grain slow twist bullet has been replaced by the lower velocity NATO 62 grain fast twist AP bullet. It's more accurate and has better penetration than the old stuff at very long range, but the problem is it makes nice clean "knitting needle" wounds.

The old stuff spun out flipped and tumbled on impact and mad horrific wounds, it really chewed people up.

The thinking on the new stuff was it's better at going through helmets and body armor and vehicles and is accurate further out. Probably true, but against Somalis or Afghans that's a moot point, you want them torn up and killed right now, not to keep shooting at you even though you have drilled a few nice clean holes through them which will kill them later on.

[Travis McGee]

Try to see BHD in a big screen movie theater, it's awesome. All it's missing is the smell of hot kerosene smoke from the helos blowing over you.

[Ed_in_LA]

Well, there appears to be some confusion over who requested what, and who was responsible for the decision to not send AC-130's and armor. According to the book, General Garrison, the commander of Task Force Ranger, which conducted the raid, requested neither the AC-130 nor armor. General Montgomery, commander of both UN forces and U.S. forces (exclusive of Task Force Ranger) in Somalia, neither of which were involved in the raid, requested armor for the purpose of escorting convoys and force protection, but was turned down. Montgomery was in charge of what you refer to as the "meals on wheels" operation, not the operations against the hostile militias. Had his request for armor been granted, those armor units still would not have been used in the raid, only the subsequent rescue. A UN force consisting of Pakistani and Malaysian APC's and tanks was used instead to rescue the pinned down soldiers of Task Force Ranger.

As for your question of why American soldiers had to die, it really does appear that the main culprit was the unexpected vulnerability of the Blackhawk helicopter to rpg's -- something that no one can fairly blame anyone for, in my opinion. The mission was a success until those helicopters were shot down. The bulk of the casualties came from the lost helicopter crews -- Durant was the only survivor -- and the Rangers and Delta Force operators killed and wounded trying to reach, and protect the crews of, the downed helicopters. Task Force Ranger had all the firepower they needed to accomplish their mission and were on their way home when disaster struck. They just didn't have enough firepower to successfully cope with the loss of two Blackhawks. Perhaps General Montgomery's "meals on wheels" forces should have been on standby for just such a contingency.

[Joe Brower]

Correct. The differences in wounding potential between the VN era 55gr FMJ M193 5.56x45 NATO ammo and the new 62gr M855 "penetrator" can be easily verified by a simple test using any .223 rifle with 1-7 or 1-9 twist:

Put a peice of cardboard out at 25 yards. Put a thin sheet of sheet metal about a foot in front of it. Put a round of M855 through the sheet metal, and then check the cardboard. You'll see a clean hole pierced right through both.

Now do the same with M193. There will be a clean hole in the sheet metal, but the cardboard will be sprayed with copper and lead fragments. Very ugly.

Add to this how many of the Somalis were hopped up on khat, enabling them to keep on going despite their wounds. Also, they weren't avid watchers of television, which teaches us civilized folks that you're supposed to fall down when you're shot.

[Travis McGee]

I don't think that poking a "knitting needle" wound through a Somali hopped up on khatt in the heat of battle will do much to stop him from emptying his AK-47 magazine at you.

But it's pretty hard to keep shooting when your arm or lower leg is torn off, or you have a sudden wound the size of a grapefuit torn out of your guts and back.

The Russkies are way ahead of us with their "poison bullets" for their AK-74s and Dragonovs. The hollow space, penetrator and driver is accurate in the air, has good impact penetration, and then flips 180* in ten inches every time. The Afghans called them the "poison bullets" when they were introduced because they were so much more deadly (immediately) than the old 7.62X39 ball.

Meanwhile, we have gone backwards in the effectiveness of our bullets against the type of enemy we are likely to face in the future.

[Joe Brower]

Yes. Of course, as "civilians", we are not bound by such constraints. Our acquisitions are made accordingly.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

what does BWD mean?

[archy]

I don't think that poking a "knitting needle" wound through a Somali hopped up on khatt in the heat of battle will do much to stop him from emptying his AK-47 magazine at you.

But it's pretty hard to keep shooting when your arm or lower leg is torn off, or you have a sudden wound the size of a grapefuit torn out of your guts and back.

The Russkies are way ahead of us with their "poison bullets" for their AK-74s and Dragonovs. The hollow space, penetrator and driver is accurate in the air, has good impact penetration, and then flips 180* in ten inches every time. The Afghans called them the "poison bullets" when they were introduced because they were so much more deadly (immediately) than the old 7.62X39 ball.

Note though that Russian Aghantsi veterans far preferred the 7,62 M43 for its ability to put a hostile dukhi down at a distance, particularly with the longer barrelled RPK squad support weapon, and that the weapon of choice among those given one is the AK 103 updated Kalishnikov- in 7,62x39. The 7N6 5,45 ammunition is indeed thought to be an excellent stopper as per the *poison bullet* reports, and is favoured for nighttime work and for use with optical/electronic sights for that reason, and the 5,45 is sufficiently better suited for use in shorter-barrelled weapons like the 16-inch Kalishnikov and Nikonov rifles that a US-made CAR15 clone is now available in that chambering- and the AK action can be further reduced in length to the AKSU-74U *Krinkov* submachinegun size for tank crewmen and others needing something stubbier, just as the Israelis have shortened their own 5,56mm Galils to shorter-barrelled Glilon configuration, and are now converting to an even shorter *micro-Galil* version at a length at which M16 functioning becomes problematical.

Of course, blowing one of those *knitting needle* [the Russians call the cartridge *the icepick* BTW] bullets through a helmeted head, or transversely through both shoulders, the spine and heart, or through the pelvic structure will generally get the job done. But theories on the desirability of causing a well-ordered army woes by overloading their casualty treatment system with injured soldiers temporarily taken out of the fighting mean little to those fighting a counterinsurgency war against religious fanatics, and the favoured weapon in Afghanistan now is the M203 grenade launcher with a HEDP round, a very good stopper on an enemy whether wearing body armour or not, just as the Russian equivalent of that weapon, the 30mm GP-30 grenade launcher with VOG-25 fragmentation and VOG-25P *bouncing frag* grenades is now favored in Chechnya. And they do not require a center hit to immediately stop a drugged-up hostile who's hit...or nearly missed. Close enough for Horseshoes is good enough for hand grenades, and UGL grenades, as well.

[Travis McGee]

You got that right!

[Travis McGee]

I'd like to see the 20mm part of the OICW weapon put into service immediately as a test platform for the new range detonating round!

[wardaddy]

Why don't we apply Corbon/Glazer/Black Hills type bullet expansion/disintegration into our military ammo? Most of these are higher velocity but lighter overall. Is there a problem at range?

I'm no expert on bullet expansion/accuracy/tumbling statistics and coefficients but I just wondered. My experience of examining wounds of various sorts has proven to me beyond any doubt that we have some really super lethal rounds in our private arsenal.

I was reviewing some bullet expansions pics at my brother's request last night. The .45ACP Corbons were mushrooming to .80 at 25 yards against denim covered plywood. I would think an even higher velocity rifle bullet would have an even greater expansion in proportion to original caliber diameter if designed properly.

Is it because of some Geneva Convention restrictions?

[Cap'n Crunch]

Thanks.

Alot of interesting comments by everybody. I heard the AK 74 round was bad news. That's the first Russian grenade launcher I've seen, 30mm too. And ours are going to 20mm? Projectiles seem to be getting smaller and more deadly.

[Joe Brower]

Is it because of some Geneva Convention restrictions?

Exactly so.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Rounds going right through reminds me of the KTW round, which was invented in part by a cop from my dept.

[wardaddy]

I was afraid of that.

Sort of inconsistant isn't it? Compare "FMJ only" concerns to flechette grenades, cluster bombs, napalm, gasoline bombs, puff, daisy cutters, and even nukes and everyone shudders at manstopper small arms rounds. I suppose there is rhyme to the reason but it escapes me. Any idea?

[Squantos]

Is it because of some Geneva Convention restrictions?

Yes......... "if" a war has been "officially" declared. I am still in possession of a document dating from the early 80's stating that for anti-terrorist work/police action /rescues ect ect that hollow point and speciality ammunition banned by said Geneva paper (which doesn't stop anything IMHO) is allowed and there are NSN's and DODIC's for such ammunition in the DOD supply system. Including frangable loads.

From about mid 80's till I retired I carried 230 Grain HydraShok in my 1911A1 and or 115 grain Corbons in a Browning Highpower when that was carried. The model 37 airweights we carried were stuffed with 158 grain lead (No#38G) semi-wadcutter hollowpoint +P Federal ammo, I'm told ,right or wrong, that is an old FBI load that has an excellent record if one is using a snub or revolver in that caliber........

Just my two cents......Stay Safe Ya'll !

[archy]

Why don't we apply Corbon/Glazer/Black Hills type bullet expansion/disintegration into our military ammo? ... Is it because of some Geneva Convention restrictions?

Partly, though we've repudiated those provisions against projectiles *designed to cause unnecessary suffering* for use in antiterrorist operations and other uses in which their use [especially target-grade rifle hollowpoint ammo for snipers] are not to be used against uniformed enemy combatants. Note too that snipers frequently violate the requirement to display *identifying insignia visible at a distance* or wear it beneath camoflage *ghillie* suits.

But what may be detrimental for a projectile may be desirable in another setting and use, such as the armor-piercing penetrating ability of the M855 M16A2 round, developed for use in 20-inch barrelled M16A2 rifles, but now in use in the shorter, 14-inch barrelled M4 carbines. The reduction in power coming from using the shorter barrells may also have been a goodly part of the problem....

Comparisons between lower-velocity handgun expanding ammo and that meant for use in a rifle can be apples versus oranges, but it'd sure be interesting to see what Tom Burzynski, who designed Winchester's Black Talon projectiles, Federal's Hydra-Shok and Remington's Golden Saber, could do with a .220 or .224 rifle bullet. And while he's at it, one for the WWII .30 carbine [ca 115-grain .308 bullet at around 2000 FPS] would be a nice touch.... <p. -archy-/-

[archy]

The model 37 airweights we carried were stuffed with 158 grain lead (No#38G) semi-wadcutter hollowpoint +P Federal ammo, I'm told ,right or wrong, that is an old FBI load that has an excellent record if one is using a snub or revolver in that caliber....

It is and it does. Remember the pic by photog Eddie Adams from the 1968 Tet Offensive of South Vietnamese National Police Chief Nguyen Ngoc *Larry* Loan potting a NVA officer in the head who was caught playing sniper in civilian clothing? *Laughing Larry* was using the 158-grain lead HP *metro loads* [so called because they were also Chicago PD standard issue] in his S&W M49 *Bodyguard* hammerless snubby, the same thing I carried and still do in mine that dates to that period- I couldn't get ahold of a stainless Chief Special when I was finally *authorized* [ordered to] carry a non-issue weapon, looked for a steel-framed Walther P.38 and settled for a Browning GP Hi-power instead, though loaded with Finnish or Swedish m/39 9mm SMG ball rather than the Cor-bons you like...until Lee Jurras' Super Vel JHPs came along, and I got them by the case...for free.

That old GP has logged nearly 100,000 through it, has been refinished twice and has required only the replacement of a wooden grip that swelled from humid weather [guess where!] and split out around a screw hole.

My M49 is beat up about as bad, though it's seen much less use but a lot of pocket wear, and carry when I had the fingers of one hand in a cast for most of a year, making a gun change more practical than a reload. It deserves an honorable retirement, I think, maybe for a .45 rewhalloper or possibly a Charter Bulldog....

-archy-/-

[archy]

Thanks.

Alot of interesting comments by everybody. I heard the AK 74 round was bad news. That's the first Russian grenade launcher I've seen, 30mm too. And ours are going to 20mm? Projectiles seem to be getting smaller and more deadly.

The Germans had a WWII HE round for their 26.5mm signal flare pistol of WWII, making it useful not only as a signalling device but for housecleaning in urban areas, since many more of the small explosive cartridges for the leuchtpistole could be carried than the standard *Egg* or *stick* [potato masher] hand grenades.

And the Argentines have developed a bore-safe 12-gauge slug with a high explosive burster charge and a fragmentation effect, said to be particularly handy for stopping automobiles at military police checkpoints and for use by those with shotguns against those wearing soft body armor.

Likely, that 12 gauge round would be a bit more than most US shotgunners would ever need, but it could sure be nice to have in bear country. I am not holding my breath waiting for them to show up on the shelves at the local Wal-Mart, however, and until I do, the *dragons breath* incendiary/signalling rounds I use for bear insurance will do fine.

. -archy-/-

[archy]

I'd like to see the 20mm part of the OICW weapon put into service immediately as a test platform for the new range detonating round!

The last time they live-fired one, a civilian ordnance technician demonstrating it was killed. Accordingly, the promotional information was revised to read that there have never been any military injuries sustained in the development of the new system....

I'd prefer to wait until it's developed and improved a bit more, and I understand there are still concerns about the possibility of detonation of the rounds by radio frequency eqyuipment like certain radars...and nearby lightning strikes.

But too, the Russians have got a smaller caliber 25mm UGL in the field and being used in Chechnya. Wanna see it in action, being used both by and against them?

-archy-/-