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California immigrants thrive where little English is spoken
fresnoBee.com State News ^ | September 2, 2002 | SANDRA MARQUEZ

Posted on 09/02/2002 8:14:25 AM PDT by sweetliberty

Edited on 04/12/2004 2:10:06 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Ask Odalia Ramirez if she speaks English and the Guatemala-born housewife will tell you "un poquito," or a little bit. But that doesn't limit Ramirez, 40, from getting by in Pico-Union, a predominantly Central American neighborhood where you can eat steamed corn "pupusas" stuffed with meat and cheese, put a down payment on a dream retirement home in El Salvador while doing your grocery shopping and have your taxes prepared by a Spanish-speaking accountant.


(Excerpt) Read more at fresnobee.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: california; hablaespanol; illegals; immigration
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We'd better get after our legislators or soon we will all find ourselves living in a little Mexico. I guess some people are okay with that. I am not.
1 posted on 09/02/2002 8:14:25 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: sweetliberty
15 years and she can barely understand english, talk about lazy.
2 posted on 09/02/2002 8:19:00 AM PDT by SouthernFreebird
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To: SouthernFreebird
Hey, cut her some slack! She knows enough English to make several hundred bucks every election day, casting multiple votes for the democrats using the all the motor-voter registrations she is given by the local ward heeler.
3 posted on 09/02/2002 8:26:53 AM PDT by Tacis
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To: FreedomFriend; madfly; Tancredo Fan
ping
4 posted on 09/02/2002 8:28:13 AM PDT by gubamyster
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To: sweetliberty
It's not that immigrants thrive in areas of Kalifornia where little English is spoken - it's that nobody else does!

With the acquiescence of Washington and Sacramento, the scenario Pat Buchanan wrote of - of huge regions of the U.S. where few if any speak English - is coming true, and in such regions, neither European-Americans nor blacks will likely succeed. It's the scenario which black talk-radio host Ken Hamblin described of native-born black kids in Lost Angeles having to be fluent in Spanish for burger-joint jobs. Wonder why the pattern documented by Univ. of Michigan demographer William Frey of both middle-class European-Americans and middle-class blacks fleeing the entire state of Kalifornia in huge numbers yearly?

Get the sticker!

5 posted on 09/02/2002 8:31:07 AM PDT by glc1173@aol.com
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To: SouthernFreebird
I suspect cultural chauvanism is more to blame than laziness. They don't want to be like us stupid gringos, but will take all the prosperity and modern conveniences our society has managed to provide.
6 posted on 09/02/2002 8:31:42 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: sweetliberty
"Ramirez said she wanted to discuss the problem with a school administrator, but she had to wait until one of her older sons could request time off from work to translate for her. "I feel frustrated," she said. "

"I only be in this country a short distance." : )

7 posted on 09/02/2002 8:57:33 AM PDT by jmax
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To: sweetliberty
...nobody over 14 speaks English.

But most under 14 do, in fact.

The "problem" here is illusory; this is NO DIFFERENT than all the mass immigrations in this nation's past.

Illegal immigration--a real problem--aside, those who act like this is the end of the world are simply ignorant. One generation from now, this population will speak English primarily.

Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore.

8 posted on 09/02/2002 9:03:30 AM PDT by Illbay
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Illbay
Does your illegal alien housekeeper speak English?
10 posted on 09/02/2002 9:07:01 AM PDT by sarcasm
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To: sweetliberty
Almost half of Californians were either born in another country or are the children of foreign-born parents.

This is no news to Californians but I hope it is an eye opener to those who don't understand the concerns raised by many on this forum.

More revealing is that when all generations of the children of aliens, who entered illegally since WWII, are counted they comprise a super-majority of California's residence.

This would translate to a substantial reduction in California's population had the nation not adopted the immigration philosophies which were contained in the landmark 1965 immigration act that enhanced LBJ's Great Society.

Since California relies extrodinarily disproportionately on the larger tax payer to finance it's government, reductions in a sector of the population that acconts for a majority of the state's educational and "social" expenses would have had a significant impact on California's current financial crsis.

Whether good or bad these are startling numbers. Numbers not approached by any other state. Not even Teaxs.

11 posted on 09/02/2002 9:09:55 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Illbay
"One generation from now, this population will speak English primarily. Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore."

Oh, like Chinatown huh?

12 posted on 09/02/2002 9:11:08 AM PDT by sweetliberty
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To: sweetliberty
These statements say it all:

"Sometimes I understand them. Sometimes I don't," said Ramirez, speaking in Spanish, who moved to the United States with her welder husband 15 years ago.

According to Paz, most of the restaurant owners, auto mechanics and seamstresses who stop to gaze at the promotional videos flaunting lakeside haciendas in their homeland have lived in the United States between 10 and 20 years. Many of them don't speak English.

"Almost 90 percent speak only Spanish," she said. "We explain everything to them in Spanish. All the paperwork is in Spanish."

13 posted on 09/02/2002 9:12:30 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: Tacis
She knows enough English to make several hundred bucks every election day

The Almighty American DOLLAR is the one thing they don't demand be printed in Spanish. That's why they come, they don't like America much otherwise.

14 posted on 09/02/2002 9:14:42 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Amerigomag
Numbers not approached by any other state. Not even Teaxs.

You should see parts of Texas. There are fast growing areas there English is not spoken by many people at all. Even is a city the size of El Paso, one third of the people don't speak English.

15 posted on 09/02/2002 9:17:01 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ
Is the northwestern quadrant of the El Paso metropolitan area the least effected? You know, around Sunland Park, NM and Anthony, TX/NM. Maybe the Sunland Park Mall area? The Montana Road area didn't look too bad, though the downtown area and southeastern sections looked to have more Spanish. I could be wrong. You tell me, you live near there.
16 posted on 09/02/2002 9:21:53 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: sweetliberty; Free the USA; Fish out of Water; Helix; backhoe; Tancredo Fan; Brownie74; bok; ...
ping
17 posted on 09/02/2002 9:25:09 AM PDT by madfly
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To: sweetliberty
But Martinez, who moved to California with her family from Nicaragua 19 years ago and speaks fluent English, said learning a second language is a key to the community's long-term success. "Otherwise, they will do the work that our Hispanic brothers traditionally do, working as house cleaners, cooks and gardeners," she said.

Okay, she consideres English a second language. Interesting!!!! Also, she sounds a bit racist assuming that her people are only good for menial labor, huh?

18 posted on 09/02/2002 9:33:07 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: Illbay; sweetliberty; Dakmar
"Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore."

I wish I could share your optimism. Maybe that's been the experience in Texas but in L.A. the spanish speakers intend to make this state a culturally "spanish" state. They are not just lazy, they are adamant against assimiliating into the American culture.
I worked two blocks from Pico and Union back before the Rodney King riots. There was an appliance store in that building which did business entirely in Spanish. This is not just spanish in the home, it is all spanish all the time , everywhere. (BTW, the looting and arson around my office building was done not by blacks protesting the King beating but by hispanic men, women, and children looking for freebies.) That store now owns the entire building and the last time I drove by, everything is still in spanish.

"[T]his is [not] the end of the world ..."

No, of course this is not the end of the world. It is just the end of America culturally. America will go on with a new culture. History will look back and assign actions it takes to be "American" but it will bear little relation to what our nation was when it was founded, and instead will have transformed into a very different society.

19 posted on 09/02/2002 9:33:23 AM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: FreedomFriend
She's probably on OUR WELFARE!

GRRRRR.
20 posted on 09/02/2002 9:33:56 AM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: FreedomFriend
There are a few neighborhoods that still have English spoken in them, the West side, parts of the NE especially around the military base, and parts of the East side. The housing projects of course are the worst because they have no need to ever learn English. The colonias are all around but I'd have to say those are better people but most won't ever learn English. You see people here who immigrated from Mexico over 20 years ago who have never made the effort to learn English and never will. The bilingual programs are filled which means many don't want their kids to learn English either. We also have a very high middle school and high school dropout rate and of course dependence on government programs.
21 posted on 09/02/2002 9:42:43 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Illbay
If what you say is true then why do we still have these multi-generational enclaves not being able to speak English?
22 posted on 09/02/2002 9:42:44 AM PDT by Ajnin
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To: Illbay
Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore.

That didn't happen in Canada with Quebec, or in Kosovo where people continue to be divided by ethnic groups.

23 posted on 09/02/2002 9:44:27 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: sweetliberty
We'd better get after our legislators or soon we will all find ourselves living in a little Mexico. I guess some people are okay with that. I am not.

Sadly, California is already there.

24 posted on 09/02/2002 9:44:58 AM PDT by kstewskis
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To: BenLurkin
I just don't get the concept of bringing in millions of illiterate poor people, many of whom have a deep seated hatred of us and our culture, to do jobs that our homegrown illiterates would be doing if not for all the government hand-outs. Sounds like a recipe for trouble.
25 posted on 09/02/2002 9:45:44 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: Illbay
Years ago people were motivated to learn English. Today things have changed. Everything you can do in English you can also do in Spanish. Voting booths are now required to hand out ballots in other languages. That would have never happened years ago. The immigrants of years ago knew that in order for America to survive everyone needed to become Americans and speak English.
26 posted on 09/02/2002 9:53:40 AM PDT by blueriver
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To: sweetliberty
Bump
27 posted on 09/02/2002 10:02:21 AM PDT by Fiddlstix
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To: sweetliberty
Ramirez said she wanted to discuss the problem with a school administrator, but she had to wait until one of her older sons could request time off from work to translate for her.

The implication is that her lack of proficiency in English interfered with her communication with school personell. This just didn't happen. It's simply not true.

All, repeat all, California schools were minorities are substanative must employ some bilingial staff within their counciling or administrative structures.

28 posted on 09/02/2002 10:05:37 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Illbay
Careful, you'll upset the bigots.
29 posted on 09/02/2002 10:13:02 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Illbay
Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore

This may well be the case in Katy, Texas today but the assimilation process has broken down in California due to the sheer number of recent immigrants.

For those children of immigrants raised and educated in California during the 1950's through the 1970's your obsevations are substantially true. The spirally numbers of immigrants in the last twenty years in California has interfered with this process. Immigrant children born in California during the 1980's today remain more fluent in their parent's tongue than in English.

They are certainly bilingual but Spanish is the predominant language in the workplace because they deal on a daily basis with the more recent tidal wave of immigrants pouring into California since the 1990s.

30 posted on 09/02/2002 10:24:43 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: sweetliberty
You can't become an American citizen without speaking English. So what is she doing here?

Solution: deportation.

31 posted on 09/02/2002 10:29:27 AM PDT by ikka
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To: ikka
You can't become an American citizen without speaking English. So what is she doing here?

That was an old rule. You can become one very easily by not speaking English. You can have an anchor baby or use other family reunification. You can fake it too by just memorizing the little bit they have you say in English, I know people who brag about doing that.

32 posted on 09/02/2002 10:32:06 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Illbay
"The "problem" here is illusory; this is NO DIFFERENT than all the mass immigrations in this nation's past."

Get out of denial. No prior mass immigration in U.S. history involved a contiguous nation with a porous border sending hordes of aliens to the U.S. on an apparently-endless basis! Nor were any large contiguous enclaves speaking primarily another language involved. Nor was staying non-English-fluent an option; there just wasn't a Univision or government services here in your ancestor's homeland's language to allow them to not assimilate when they came.

"Chinatowns" weren't contiguous to China, nor "Little Italys" to Italy! Also very important, prior mass immigrations just didn't last long - so those who came could be assimilated; now, even if the individual Mexican arriving in Lost Angeles might assimilate, the community he's part of just won't - as hordes of additional Mexicans arrive daily with no foreseeable end.

Mass immigration in the 1920s meant large numbers of people - but from many different homelands; it thus lacked any potential to form city-wide Kosovos, much less broad regional ones.

IMMIGRATION resource library: public-health facts, court decisions, local INS numbers!

33 posted on 09/02/2002 10:35:56 AM PDT by glc1173@aol.com
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To: Roscoe
Careful, you'll upset the bigots

I assume this fellow's attitudes would also classify as bigotry:

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." -- Thomas Jefferson

Appears substantilally to represent the views of this forum.

Wonder where I found this quote? Couldn't have been on your personal page could it? Naw.

34 posted on 09/02/2002 10:37:48 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Dakmar
Dakmar wrote:
"I just don't get the concept of bringing in millions of illiterate poor people, many of whom have a deep seated hatred of us and our culture, to do jobs that our homegrown illiterates would be doing if not for all the government hand-outs. Sounds like a recipe for trouble."

This reminds me of a one-liner I once heard about the black/white race issue in America:
"We should have picked our own cotton."

To paraphrase: "We should be doing our _own_ housekeeping chores."

Cheers!
- John

35 posted on 09/02/2002 10:39:22 AM PDT by Fishrrman
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To: FITZ
I drove into El Paso via US 62/180, and the northeastern side, near the military base, did appear mostly English. In fact, I saw a sizeable number of "Anglos" in that section of town. The shopping areas weren't all that bad either, and new housing was very cheap. A new house for $70,000? You can't beat that.
36 posted on 09/02/2002 10:41:48 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: FITZ
I suppose that would be the east/northeast side of town.
37 posted on 09/02/2002 10:43:22 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: Roscoe
I suppose that you support balkanization and bigotry of American culture?
38 posted on 09/02/2002 10:47:01 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: Amerigomag
"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." -- Thomas Jefferson

And there are bigots who would dishonestly contend that all immigrants fit that profile. Thanks for the example.

39 posted on 09/02/2002 10:47:57 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Amerigomag
California and Texas are quite a bit different culturally, as well. I doubt you will hear anyone in Texas (outside of Universites, Democratic Party operatives, and Fortune 500 HR personnel) use phrases like "celebrating diversity" or "multicultural" in any sense other than derogatory.
40 posted on 09/02/2002 10:48:12 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: sweetliberty
Canada MANDATES all recent immigrants take french classes. (I do not know if that is just quebec) At home speak what you want but to live and work here in the usa you must speak english like all past immigrants.
41 posted on 09/02/2002 10:48:14 AM PDT by Greeklawyer
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To: FreedomFriend
Yes you can buy new houses for $70,000 but they don't have any yard but they're not going to allow yards anyhow because there's not enough water. Just check the total amount of taxes you pay a year for that price house ---the tax rate is very high and one reason so many are leaving town. The other reason is lack of jobs but if you have the right kind of job it's a good deal.
42 posted on 09/02/2002 10:48:24 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: FreedomFriend
I suppose that you support balkanization and bigotry of American culture?

Could you try that again, in English?

43 posted on 09/02/2002 10:49:24 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
And there are bigots who would dishonestly contend that all immigrants fit that profile

Agreed!

But to say that the rate of immigration is the root cause of the evil, neither impunes the intergrity of the immigrant nor the culture that is being impacted by the consequence of the sheer numbers.

California is financially drowning. The immigrant tide is inundating the system capacity. The personal character, intentions or cultural heritage of the immigrant is not the root cause.

The volume of their numbers is.

44 posted on 09/02/2002 10:56:49 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Amerigomag; Flyer; Allegra; Illbay
Question? How Well is Assimilation going in the ever expanding number of areas that are predominately "Hispanic". (Note, illegal immigration areas)?

Houston Metropolitan Area

The Keys:
1990

Beige 0.0%-11.0% Hispanic
Yellow 11.2%-23.1% Hispanic
Green-Yellow 23.3%-39.3% Hispanic
Olive Green 39.9%-63.4% Hispanic
Forest Green 64.7%-100% Hispanic

2000/2010/2020
Beige 0.0%-14.1% Hispanic
Yellow 14.1%-27.5% Hispanic
Green-Yellow 27.7%-44.5% Hispanic
Olive Green 45.2%-67.1% Hispanic
Forest Green 67.6%-97.2% Hispanic

The Maps:

1990



2000


2010


2020


45 posted on 09/02/2002 10:57:22 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: FreedomFriend
Yes, but what would a house in Juarez cost? Half that?
46 posted on 09/02/2002 10:57:22 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: FreedomFriend
Let's consider not starting a graphics war. I haven't the time to wait for the thread to reload after each reply. Thanks.
47 posted on 09/02/2002 11:02:43 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Amerigomag
The immigrant tide is inundating the system capacity.

System capacity? Berries in the woods? Gaia?

Productive people increase wealth and capital resources.

48 posted on 09/02/2002 11:03:02 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Amerigomag
Really? I didn't realize that it effected your computer, as mine is able to download with ease.
49 posted on 09/02/2002 11:09:09 AM PDT by FreedomFriend
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To: Roscoe
Productive people increase wealth and capital resources.

Once again agreed.

But in our state's case it's the children that are at the focal point of the state's strained resources. The cost of providing housing, education and health care to this unproductive segment of our state's population are an enormous component of the state's present financial expenditures.

Notice that Dufus was satisfied with Saturday's budget deal because it "protected" these "core" state expenditures.

50 posted on 09/02/2002 11:13:37 AM PDT by Amerigomag
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