View from Chaos Manor: Hate Groups (guess who?)

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/currentview.html ^ | Sep 6, 2002 | Jerry Pournelle

[clodkicker]

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/currentview.html Friday, September 6, 2002

A newsletter I subscribe to spoke of civility on the Internet and mentioned "the hate filled web site" http://www.freerepublic.com/  I went over and had a quick look, and I didn't see any hate, although it's certainly not a Democratic Party booster site.  Is there something I don't know about that site?

In fact this chap said today that two web sites are "hate filled"

http://www.lucianne.com/main.asp is the other. 

Here is what he said:

"As I've remarked before the Internet contributes greatly to this. It's much easier for us to become online "dittoheads" when the drug of hate speech can be consumed privately, without sound, without company and without interruption. This has been reflected since the beginning of the Web in such hate-filled sites as Lucianne and Free Republic . Recently liberals have begun fighting back (sort of) at sites like Buzzflash and MediaWhores ."

 

I went looking and I saw no hate. I didn't have a chance to look very deep, and I presume that the people who post there are not Democrats or liberals, but I didn't see any "hate". Perhaps I missed it? Or have we got to the point where anything that is not explicitly liberal can be dismissed as barbaric and hate filled?  I haven't time to do any in depth investigation. I have a column to do. But I wonder where we are when a commercial newsletter mostly about web technology says things like this.

[clodkicker]

Thought this was interesting.

[Arkinsaw]

I think its funny that he mentions online "dittoheads". Whoever wrote that has obviously never investigated this site! Can you imagine somebody saying that the posters at FreeRepublic are in lockstep? HAHAHAHAHA.

The posters here at FreeRepublic debate themselves more than they debate the actions of their opponents. You have drug-warriors, anti-drug-warriors, libertarians, Republicans, independents, Southern partisans, neo-Yankees, Bushies, anti-Bushies, Calvinists, anti-Calvinists, pro-Turks, anti-Turks, pro-immigrationists, anti-immigrationists, anti-Israel, pro-Israel, pro-Law Enforcement, anti-Law Enforcement, pro-Serb, anti-Serb, Buchananites, Bushies, and Keyesians. You've got pro-freetraders, anti-freetraders. You have States Righters and centralizers. You have global reactionists and isolationists. Etc., Etc.

Sure we have things in common that hold us together but most of our debate revolves around the other issues. This place is an active ongoing debate inside the Conservative movement. Healthy.

We are not the ones that march in lockstep, we are not the ones that are "dittoheads". The author should head on over to DU or BartCop or something where everyone agrees with each other and do nothing much besides make silly comments about George Bush or John Ashcroft.

[AzJP]

Interesting, indeed.
We have an open access computer (I'm on it now)in the office where I'm working. Visitors are encouraged to surf around.
One of the websites visited is FreeRepublic. Depending on what is on at the time, visitors can get the opinion that FreeRepublic constituents are vile, rude, hateful, illiterate or they are compassionate, erudite, intelligent, polite.

I wasn't here at the time, but there is a screenprint here on the wall wherein a I.N.S. employee posted (on Free Republic) a cartoon of a man urinating on the Mexican national flag. The poster is allegedly a INS employee in Arizona working on the USA/Mexican border (and a former U.S.Marine!)
The screenprint was captured by a intern from Univerisity of Arizona who shared her find with her schoolmates and with a local Congressman's office.

She (intern) is still livid. She'll graduate from law school next spring and I imagine she'll have an animated opinion of FreeRepublic for some time.

Yes, her name sounds Mexican, as does the Congressman's.

Freedom of speech does have responsibilities.

[RonF]

For those of you who don't know, Jerry Pournelle is a well-known Science Fiction writer. He's not slow to pick up a bar tab, either. My favorite picture of him is where he was giving a presentation using slides, and using a longneck beer bottle as a pointer. I've had the pleasure of meeting him twice, and arranged for him to speak at a meeting of my ASTM subcommittee.

Chaos Manor started out as a column in Byte Magazine (of lamented memory), describing the hardware and software he was working with, the writing he was doing, games he was playing, and anything else that met his fancy. Chaos Manor is the name of his house. His column has to be at least 10 years old, and he's always a good read. He doesn't mince words, either. I recommend it regardless of your politics.

[RonF]

I will say this. There are some damn fools on Free Republic. If you check out a few postings at random, you could definitely get the idea that there's a lot of hateful postings here, especially if you read threads on Bill Clinton or Islam. Being closer to the liberal side than many FReepers, I've been the subject of a few hateful flames.

But, you'll see that kind of thing on any site like this, left, right, or center. Before someone makes a sweeping statement like this, they should do more research than I would think this person did. I would say that the hateful types are a minority here, no more than on any political site.

[John Jorsett]

I wasn't here at the time, but there is a screenprint here on the wall wherein a I.N.S. employee posted (on Free Republic) a cartoon of a man urinating on the Mexican national flag. The poster is allegedly a INS employee in Arizona working on the USA/Mexican border (and a former U.S.Marine!)

The screenprint was captured by a intern from Univerisity of Arizona who shared her find with her schoolmates and with a local Congressman's office.

I've seen actual photos of Mexicans in the U.S. waving the Mexican flag while simultaneously ripping up the U.S. flag. I wonder if she'd be as upset over that?

[dighton]

My favorite picture of him is where he was giving a presentation using slides, and using a longneck beer bottle as a pointer.

HA!

I enjoyed his Byte columns too.

[Quix]

I like Jerry P.

Where did he go after Byte?

[AzJP]

If the Mexican bragged about their uniformed service in the Mexican military, and if they bragged about their employment in the Mexican government, and if their government job was interfacing with America, yes, I'd guess probably so. She'd be mad as hell. Especially if she was a citizen of Mexico.

I've only met her once. I was impressed with her patriotism combined with high standards of conduct.
(Probably difficult to work with!) :)

[alloysteel]

It would seem that there are a couple of different kinds of "hate" floating around....

One would be a "proactive" variety, and the other would be a "reactive", responding to attacks that may only be compared to somebody rushing over the hill pointing a flamethrower in your direction. Nobody much likes getting flamed. But some attacks really are gratuitous. Like a teenager lashing out at parents who have been quite lenient, to the point of indulging practically every whim the child came up with. But when even the mildest of rebukes is applied, "I hate you!" rings out loud. At which time, the parents, feeling quite wronged, retaliate with a little "hate" of their own.

The universe can be a ruthless place. Does an attack by a great white shark mean the shark "hates" you? In that case, the shark is just being a shark, and does not differentiate between your magnificent intellectual prowness and the relatively slow thought processes of a sea turtle. To a shark, prey exists for one purpose only, lunch. Does this mean we should not hunt down and eradicate predator sharks that threaten us? There certainly is not a whole lot of common ground we may use to establish a dialogue with a shark.

And so it is with individuals who send up attacks against the established order of things, not because they are particularly oppressed, but because they are, basically, geared to break things and make noise. If there is not enough adversity in their lives, they go out and invent some. Hadn't better be yelling about "hate", though. Some 95% of the personal woe suffered in this world is self-induced.

[chaosagent]

He still writes a weekly column for the online Byte at www.byte.com, along with his website at www.jerrypournelle.com.

And of course, still writes SF, usually with Larry Niven.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

I went looking and I saw no hate. I didn't have a chance to look very deep, and I presume that the people who post there are not Democrats or liberals, but I didn't see any "hate". Perhaps I missed it?

Or have we got to the point where anything that is not explicitly liberal can be dismissed as barbaric and hate filled? I haven't time to do any in depth investigation. I have a column to do. But I wonder where we are when a commercial newsletter mostly about web technology says things like this.

Dear Jerry,

Loved your Byte column in the old days . . .

I'm very familiar with FreeRepublic.com, aware of Lucianne.com, and--though totally unfamiliar with the other two, quite confident from what you've said/quoted that they are claptrap.

The overriding point, surely, is that the Internet is a "poor man's soapbox" with a global reach. I'm very glad for the existence of FreeRepublic.com, because it is a vehicle by which I can express my views to an unlimited potential audience of people who might take interest in, and possibly debate, those ideas. I am content to be known by the company I keep by frequenting FR.

Others might prefer Lucianne, or those other sites, and now that the Internet exists to enable them, it would IMHO be an infringment of the First Amendment to suppress political discussion on them. But my opinion is that, like talk radio, Internet discussion has a huge niche open for conservative commentary (as is found on FreeRepublic.com) and very little market opening for liberal commentary.

IMHO journalists consistently use certain words deceptively, especially the word "objectivity." It is my opinion that in the mouth of a journalist, "objective" means nothing distinguishable from what "liberal" means to you. This would, if I am correct, imply that the journalist considers "conservative" to be an antonym for "objective." And that journalists would bitterly oppose the use of the term "objective" to apply to anything or anyone conservative.

It would take a little time to read a 200-page book and if necessary refer to the footnotes, but Slander by Ann Coulter will reward your attention. If that doesn't persuade you that my analisis is correct, why then, we disagree. But if it does persuade you, you will understand why talk radio is conservative--the niche for liberal discussion is essentially saturated by "objective" journalism.

[Quix]

THANKS.

I found a scifi compilation he'd edited on the theme of FREEDOM.

I used it as much I could get away with in Mainland China. . . and then someone took it. It's a small format paperback.

I'd sure Love to get my hands on another copy and continue using it with folk in Mainland China and Taiwan. You know of or could you ask about the title from Jerry?

SURE appreciate your response.

Blessings,

[Tokhtamish]

My favorite BYTE column of his was in 1983.

He wrote about reading about how someone in Czechoslovakia with an unregistered typewriter was being imprisoned. An unregistered typewriter ? He flatly asked how societies that terrified of the free flow of information could possibly adjust to the information age.

He was right on the money.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Yes, I do recall his thesis that the microchip would, a Reagan put it, "transcend" communism.