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F-16 Pilots Considered Ramming Flight 93
Aviation Week's Aviation Now ^ | September 9, 2002 | William B. Scott

Posted on 09/09/2002 4:50:26 PM PDT by hc87

Editor's Note: This is Part 3 of an ongoing special report on how the military responded to terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Earlier articles appeared in the June 3 and June 10 issues. For this segment, one D.C. Air National Guard F-16 pilot chose not to have her name used, so is identified only by her call-sign.

ANDREWS AFB, MD. -- With Pentagon in flames and hijacked aircraft threatening Washington, White House scrambled fighters with little or no armament.

Within minutes of American Airlines Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon on Sept. 11, Air National Guard F-16s took off from here in response to a plea from the White House to "Get in the air now!" Those fighters were flown by three pilots who had decided, on their own, to ram a hijacked airliner and force it to crash, if necessary. Such action almost certainly would have been fatal for them, but could have prevented another terrorism catastrophe in Washington.

One of those F-16s launched with no armament--no missiles and no usable ammunition in its 20-mm. gun. The other two "Vipers" only had a full load of 20-mm. "ball" or training rounds, not the high-explosive incendiary (HEI) bullets required for combat, and no air-to-air missiles.

The Andrews-based 121st Fighter Sqdn. was not standing alert on Sept. 11, because the District of Columbia Air National Guard (DCANG) unit was not assigned to the North American Aerospace Defense Command air defense force. Norad had already scrambled three F-16s from their alert base at Langley AFB, Va., but they were about 12 min. from Washington when the Pentagon was struck at 9:37 a.m. (AW&ST June 3, p. 48).

The 121st squadron's day had started normally. Three F-16s were flying an air-to-ground training mission on a range in North Carolina, 180 naut. mi. away. At Andrews, several officers were in a scheduling meeting when they received word that the World Trade Center had been hit by an aircraft. Minutes later, after United Airlines Flight 175 slammed into the second WTC tower, a squadron pilot called a friend in the Secret Service "to see what was going on. He was told some bad things were happening. At that time, we weren't thinking about defending anything. Our primary concern was what would happen to the air traffic system," said Lt. Col. Marc H. (Sass) Sasseville, the current 121st FS commander. On Sept. 11, he was the director of operations and air operations officer--the acting operations group commander under the 113th Wing.

Soon thereafter, the Secret Service called back, asking whether the squadron could get fighters airborne. The unit's maintenance section was notified to get several F-16s armed and ready to fly. Anticipating such an order, Col. Don C. Mozley, the 113th Logistics Group commander, had already ordered his weapons officer to "break out the AIM-9s and start building them up." The missiles had to be transported from a bunker on the other side of the base, which would take a while.

"After the Pentagon was hit, we were told there were more [airliners] coming. Not 'might be'; they were coming," Mozley recalled.

Sasseville grabbed three F-16 pilots and gave them a curt briefing: "I have no idea what's going on, but we're flying. Here's our frequency. We'll split up the area as we have to. Just defend as required. We'll talk about the rest in the air." All four grabbed their helmets, g-suits and parachute harnesses, and headed for the operations desk to get aircraft assignments.

Another call from the Secret Service commanded, "Get in the air now!" Almost simultaneously, a call from someone else in the White House declared the Washington area "a free-fire zone. That meant we were given authority to use force, if the situation required it, in defense of the nation's capital, its property and people," Sasseville said.

He and his wingman, Lucky, sprinted to the flight line and climbed into waiting F-16s armed only with "hot" guns and 511 rounds of "TP"--nonexplosive training rounds. "They had two airplanes ready to go, and were putting missiles on Nos. 3 and 4. Maintenance wanted us to take the ones with missiles, but we didn't have time to wait on those," Sasseville said. Maj. Dan (Raisin) Caine and Capt. Brandon (Igor) Rasmussen climbed into the jets being armed with AIM-9s, knowing they would take off about 10 min. behind Sasseville and Lucky.

"We had two air-to-air birds on the ramp . . . that already had ammo in them. We launched those first two with only hot guns," said CMSgt. Roy Dale (Crank) Belknap, the 113th Wing production superintendent. "By then, we had missiles rolling up, so we loaded those other two airplanes while the pilots were sitting in the cockpit."

Inside, at the operations desk, Lt. Cols. Phil (Dog) Thompson and Steve (Festus) Chase were fielding a flood of calls from the Secret Service and the FAA's two area air traffic control facilities--Washington Center and Washington Approach Control. Thompson is chief of safety for the 113th Wing, and Chase is now commander of the new Air Sovereignty Detachment here. By then, Brig. Gen. David F. Wherley, Jr., the 113th Wing commander, was on-site, trying to determine whether the unit had authorization to launch fighters.

"By this time, [commercial] airplanes were landing, but there were still several unidentified ones flying. One was in the northwest [area], basically coming down the [Potomac] River," Thompson said. Later, they would learn that the FAA and Norad's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) were tracking the hijacked United Flight 93, and feared it was coming toward Washington. Thanks to intervention by passengers, the aircraft ultimately crashed in Pennsylvania.

Maj. Billy Hutchison and his wingmen had just landed after being recalled from a training mission in North Carolina. When Hutchison checked in via radio, Thompson told him to take off immediately.

"Billy had about 2,400 lb. of gas; the other two [F-16s] were too light," Thompson said. "I told Billy to take off, but don't use afterburner to save gas. He took off with nothing--no weapons. I told him to 'do exactly what ATC asks you to do.' Primarily, he was to go ID [identify] that unknown [aircraft] that everybody was so excited about. He blasted off and flew a standard departure route, which took him over the Pentagon."

According to now-official accounts, an armed Norad-alert F-16 from Langley AFB, flown by Maj. Dean Eckmann of the 119th Fighter Wing Alert Detachment 1, was the first defender to overfly the Pentagon. At the time, Hutchison and his fellow "Capital Guardians"--as the 121st FS is known--were unaware that three other fighters were over the city.

MINUTES LATER, Sasseville and Lucky were in the air, roughly 6 min. after they had reached their F-16s. "I was still turning things on after I got airborne. By that time, the [Norad alert] F-16s from Langley were overhead--but I didn't know they were there," Sasseville recalled. "We all realized we were looking for an airliner--a big airplane. That was [United] Flight 93; the track looked like it was headed toward D.C. at that time."

The DCANG was not in the Norad or NEADS communication and command loops, so its pilots weren't on the same frequencies as Norad air defense fighters. The Andrews-based F-16s were launched by the Secret Service and someone in the White House command center, not Norad. At the time, there was no standing agreement between the Secret Service and the 113th Wing for the latter to provide fighters in response to an attack on Washington.

Hutchison made two loops up the Potomac, reversing course near Georgetown and the Pentagon, flying at 500-1,000 ft. AGL. Sasseville and Lucky were at 5,000-6,000 ft., "because I didn't want to get too low for a good radar angle, and not too high, so we could get somewhere fast," Sasseville said. He later conceded he was "making things up on the fly." Obviously, there was no precedent to draw upon. All the pilots were relying on their training and ability to think under pressure.

Hutchison was probably airborne shortly after the alert F-16s from Langley arrived over Washington, although 121st FS pilots admit their timeline-recall "is fuzzy." But it's clear that Hutchison, Sasseville and Lucky knew their options were limited for bringing down a hijacked airliner headed for an undetermined target in the capital city. Although reluctant to talk about it, all three acknowledge they were prepared to ram a terrorist-flown aircraft, if necessary. Indeed, Hutchison--who might have been the first to encounter Flight 93 if it had, indeed, been flying low and fast down the Potomac--had no other choice.

Sasseville and Lucky each had 511 rounds of ammo, but that only provided roughly a 5-sec. burst of the 20-mm. gun. And where should they shoot to ensure a hijacked aircraft would be stopped? Sasseville planned to fire from behind and "try to saw off one wing. I needed to disable it as soon as possible--immediately interrupt its aerodynamics and bring it down."

He admits there was no assurance that a 5-sec. burst of lead slugs could slice an air transport's wing off, though. His alternative was "to hit it--cut the wing off with my wing. If I played it right, I'd be able to bail out. One hand on the stick and one hand on the ejection handle, trying to ram my airplane into the aft side of the [airliner's] wing," he said. "And do it skillfully enough to save the pink body . . . but understanding that it might not go as planned. It was a tough nut; we had no other ordnance."

Still unaware that the 119th FW alert F-16s were overhead, patrolling at a higher altitude, Sasseville initially split the airspace into four sectors. He swept the northwest area of Washington--where the hijacked United Flight 93 was expected to be--and had Lucky guard the northeast area.

Approximately 10 min. after Sasseville and Lucky took off, Caine and Rasmussen launched, the first Andrews-based F-16s to carry both hot guns and live AIM-9 missiles. They worked the city's southern sectors. Soon, F-16s from Richmond, Va., and Atlantic City, N.J., as well as F-15s from Langley AFB, were arriving. The air picture was confused, at best, and radio frequencies were alive with chatter.

"The FAA controllers were doing their best to get us information [about unidentified aircraft], but we were used to working with AWACS and their weapons directors and controllers," Rasmussen said. Eventually, Washington Reagan National Airport was designated "Bullseye," and fighters were given range and bearing to targets from there.

Possibly the highest ranking pilot in the area, Sasseville "essentially declared myself the CAP [combat air patrol] commander and set up deconfliction altitudes so we didn't run into each other. There really wasn't time for niceties." For the rest of the day, a dozen or so fighters rotated in and out of the region, running intercepts on myriad helicopters and light aircraft.

"THEY WERE SNAPPING to targets everywhere," Thompson said. "A lot of light aircraft fly under the [controlled] airspace here, and they had no idea what was going on. What really scared us was Washington Approach broadcasting, 'Anyone flying within 25 mi. of the Washington Tacan is authorized to be shot down.' We kind of winced at that, because there are plenty of hard reasons to not shoot somebody down. We were really in an ID posture--and trying to really be careful."

A miracle of the post-attack hours on Sept. 11 was that no aircraft was shot down accidentally, a credit to the training and discipline of U.S. fighter crews. That fact is even more impressive when one considers many of those pilots had little or no experience with air defense techniques and protocols.

"We really didn't know the intricacies of Norad's mission--how it works," Thompson explained. "We've never been an air defense unit. We practice scrambles, we know how to do intercepts and other things, but there's a lot of protocol in the air defense business. We obviously didn't have that expertise, but it worked out fine. For the first three days, everybody seemed to be reasonably happy with our orchestrating the D.C. CAP. By day-four, we'd pretty much turned into a national asset" as Norad assumed control of CAPs nationwide.

On that first day, many of the pilots flying CAP over Washington, New York and other U.S. cities were faced with the very real possibility of having to shoot down or ram their fighter into an air transport filled with innocent passengers.

"I was asking myself, 'Is this when I have to make the million-dollar decision on my own?' But with smoke billowing out of the Pentagon . . . ," Rasmussen said.

"That's what we get paid to do, though. When young guys sign up, they may not see that the 'guts and glory' of fighter-flying may cost you your life. That day brought everything into focus."

In the afternoon, Sasseville and Lucky were flying their second mission of the day--armed with AIM-9 missiles now--when they were told to contact an AWACS aircraft in the area and "expect special tasking." They were directed to fly a 280-deg. heading for 140 naut. mi.--almost due west of Washington. Unable to communicate by secure or encrypted means, the AWACS controller lowered his voice and told Sasseville via radio they were going to "escort Air Force One," President Bush's aircraft.

Two Langley F-15s offered to go along, and Sasseville concurred. Soon, an AWACS controller reported a fast-moving, unidentified aircraft southwest of Air Force One, approximately 60 naut. mi. away, but on a "cutoff vector" to the President's Boeing 747. It was above 40,000 ft. and the 747 was "in the 20,000-ft. range," but Sasseville sent the F-15s to intercept the unknown aircraft. It was a Learjet that hadn't yet landed after aircraft nationwide had been ordered out of the air.

Sasseville and the two F-15s later joined on Air Force One, while Lucky positioned her F-16 about 10 naut. mi. in front of the 747. With the SADL data link system, she was able to monitor her location relative to Sasseville's SADL-equipped F-16 positioned on Air Force One's left wing. Another flight of F-16s from Ellington AFB, Tex., were about 5 mi. in trail. They had escorted the President from Offutt AFB, Neb., according to 121st FS officers.

Why the Washington-based F-16s were sent to shadow the President's aircraft back to Andrews AFB has not been disclosed. Apparently, someone in the Norad or Secret Service command loop had received information about a potential threat to the 747, prompting a request for additional armed escorts.

Surrounded by fighters, Air Force One descended rapidly toward its home base. Lucky made a clearing pass over the airfield, pulled up, circled back and joined on Sasseville's wing. All of the fighters remained with the 747 until the latter landed, then climbed and established a CAP over Andrews.

Despite being short of aircrews the next few days, the 121st flew continuously for about 63 hr., maintaining protective CAPs over Washington. They were aided by fighters from other ANG, Reserve and active-duty units, as well.

"We were generating airplanes faster than they could put 'em up," remarked Belknap. "And we still are."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: f16; flight93; september11
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I did a search on this and couldn't find it already posted.
1 posted on 09/09/2002 4:50:26 PM PDT by hc87
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To: hc87
Wow...
2 posted on 09/09/2002 5:04:37 PM PDT by lsee
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To: hc87
Not to worry if it was posted. This is something. Everyone knows deep down inside that every single unarmbed pilot in the sky would have given his life to stop one of those planes. God bless them.

At the same time, I am reminded of things people tell me about WWII, Pearl Harbor, how unprepared we were. Thank you Clinton for leaving war planes stripped of weapons. Thank you so much, sir. /SARCASM [followed by spit in face].

3 posted on 09/09/2002 5:05:20 PM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: hc87
If true, this ends any speculation that flight# 93 was shot down. Don't you think?
4 posted on 09/09/2002 5:09:52 PM PDT by airborne
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To: hc87
I thought the Air National Guard was always armed...If not, why be there???

Must have been one of those "it couldn't happen to us" scenarios...No doubt, policies have changed...

I can't imagine killing innocent people for the good of the whole...Glad it is not I that has that responsibility...
5 posted on 09/09/2002 5:10:24 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
One heck of a story.

It is really sad that we had no armed and ready fighters defending the nation's capitol.

Also, I was surprised that Aviation Week dispensed with the "call sign only" designation that has become part of the mass media take on any pilot-related story.

6 posted on 09/09/2002 5:12:55 PM PDT by hc87
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To: airborne
If true, this ends any speculation that flight# 93 was shot down. Don't you think?

Yes, among the rational. There will always be those who see a conspiracy in anything involving the US government who will view this as disinformation planted to throw people off the true story.

7 posted on 09/09/2002 5:15:10 PM PDT by hc87
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To: airborne
If true

That's a mouthful there...We may never know if it's true...Probably better if we don't...

8 posted on 09/09/2002 5:15:25 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: hc87
Sasseville and Lucky each had 511 rounds of ammo, but that only provided roughly a 5-sec. burst of the 20-mm. gun. And where should they shoot to ensure a hijacked aircraft would be stopped? Sasseville planned to fire from behind and "try to saw off one wing. I needed to disable it as soon as possible--immediately interrupt its aerodynamics and bring it down."

They should be able to take out the tail controls OR the cockpit!

9 posted on 09/09/2002 5:21:08 PM PDT by cinFLA
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Thank you Clinton for leaving war planes stripped of weapons.

Let's be a tad more accurate: thank you Clinton for not noticing that the Cold War was over.

The reason why there weren't enough armed fighters on alert to cover the country is simple in concept, but difficult to understand in practice.

Maintaining armed aircraft on constant alert is hard on aircrews, hard on aircraft, and leads to the occasional weapons mishap--and is thus very expensive over the long haul. To avoid these problems, the Pentagon, way back in the mists of the Cold War, "de-alerted" interceptors unless Soviet bombers were moved from operating bases deep inside the USSR (from whence they could not attack America) to forward bases in Siberia.

This made sense back in the days when the US and the USSR were engaged in the Cold War. However, the Cold War ended in 1991, and the Russian bombers began to cheerfully rust away at their main bases deep inside the XUSSR. We proceeded to de-alert our birds, and with only one exception (during the Kosovo mess in 1999), both sides stayed at low alert levels.

Nobody ever called the practice into question, even after Operation Bojinka was exposed in 1995. That's where those with at least the good sense God gave a crabapple should have started asking, "Why are we doing things like this?"

10 posted on 09/09/2002 5:22:20 PM PDT by Poohbah
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To: hc87
It was posted last week, but your article has more information.

And it is very interesting to remember how strongly the Pentagon denied earlier this year that F-16s were prepared to shoot down the plane.

Come to find out, they were telling the truth.

The F-16s had no ammo! They couldn't shoot it down. So they were going to ram it down. lol
11 posted on 09/09/2002 5:24:04 PM PDT by 11th Earl of Mar
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To: hc87
BIGUNS!!!
12 posted on 09/09/2002 5:24:12 PM PDT by wattsmag2
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To: hc87
Pretty verbose...

Anyway, ball rounds will take down an airliner without a problem and the pilots who were out of ammo could've simply ejected before making contact with the airliners.

I am proud of their willingness to sacrifice themselves but it probably wouldnt have been required.

****DRAMAQUEEN ALERT****

13 posted on 09/09/2002 5:26:58 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: Dark Wing
ping
14 posted on 09/09/2002 5:37:17 PM PDT by Thud
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To: airborne
If true, this ends any speculation that flight# 93 was shot down. Don't you think?

My recollection is that flight 93 was being chased by fighters from Ohio, where 93 had doubled back towards Washington. They had not yet caught flight 93 at the time it went down, but they were closing rapidly.

15 posted on 09/09/2002 5:51:24 PM PDT by Lessismore
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
I know you don't mean that about the spit. Spit in that man's face would be far above what he actually deserved. It would actually be a compliment by comparison. Don't waste good spit, on that s-ithead.
16 posted on 09/09/2002 5:51:34 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: hc87
By then, Brig. Gen. David F. Wherley, Jr., the 113th Wing commander, was on-site, trying to determine whether the unit had authorization to launch fighters

... oh yes, and we can't attack Saddam without incontrovertible evidence.

Isn't there a miltary code, something like hot pursuit, where you can just do what needs to be done?

17 posted on 09/09/2002 6:30:06 PM PDT by Kennard
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To: hc87
With Pentagon in flames and hijacked aircraft threatening Washington, White House scrambled fighters with little or no armament.

Interesting that over 1.25 hours earlier, NORAD ordered fighters scrambled from Otis AFB.

Wonder why it took so long to scramble jets at Andrews.

18 posted on 09/09/2002 6:55:09 PM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Kennard
Sometimes there is a General with his head screwed on right. General McKee was the USAF commander in Okinawa the day the Pueblo was attacked by the North Koreans. He had no authorization and the Navy did not want his help. He took it upon himself to order a squadron to the Pueblo with orders to shoot the North Koreans out of the water if they were out of the harbor. Unfortunately, they got there a few minutes after the Pueblo was in the communist port. Of course, General McKee caught hell for his actions but was the only General, Navy or otherwise, to go to the help of the Pueblo.
19 posted on 09/09/2002 7:25:25 PM PDT by vetvetdoug
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
Not to worry if it was posted. This is something. Everyone knows deep down inside that every single unarmbed pilot in the sky would have given his life to stop one of those planes. God bless them.

Wouldn't there be other ways the fighter could take down the airliner? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a fighter jet in full afterburner leaves a rather nasty wake. Engaging afterburners immediately in front of a commercial airliner would probably cause it a few problems...

20 posted on 09/09/2002 7:28:25 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Lessismore
How do we find out if they were unarmed? According to this account, none of the jets mentioned were carrying munitions. Regardless, the pilots performed admirably under terribly difficult circumstances.
21 posted on 09/09/2002 7:51:07 PM PDT by airborne
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To: Poohbah
It was quite a bad spot.

Atleast have fighters armed, for crying out loud! What really hurts is the fact that as a result those men were willing to RAM a hijacked plane.

Why must brave men be put in such situations?
22 posted on 09/09/2002 8:27:38 PM PDT by hchutch
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To: VaBthang4
A 1/2 second squirt of ball ammo in the engines would leave the airliner powerless.
23 posted on 09/09/2002 10:04:49 PM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: Tuco-bad
Wonder why it took so long to scramble jets at Andrews.

Short answer: the only fighters there are National Guard and Marine Corps Reserve units. Additionally, there were no aircraft "cocked and locked" because our overall air defense readiness was tied to Russian bomber operational readiness.

24 posted on 09/10/2002 4:26:10 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
Short answer: the only fighters there are National Guard and Marine Corps Reserve units. Additionally, there were no aircraft "cocked and locked" because our overall air defense readiness was tied to Russian bomber operational readiness.

Guess they couldn't even have sent unarmed planes to try and distract the hijackers.

BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

25 posted on 09/10/2002 6:36:51 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

Social Engineering. Berets made in China, that had to be re-ordered. Pork pet projects of Senators.

OTOH, one AIM-9R costs about $84,000, one AMRAAM about $386,000, one tomahawk is $500,000 today, and that's the cheap stuff.

26 posted on 09/10/2002 7:23:32 AM PDT by jae471
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To: hc87
Thanks for the post, hc.
27 posted on 09/10/2002 7:50:29 AM PDT by Balata
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To: Kennard
Isn't there a military code, something like hot pursuit, where you can just do what needs to be done?

Normally there would be a set of Rules of Engagement (ROE), if we were anticipating some sort of conflict. Prior to 9-11, rightly or wrongly, we weren't expecting this sort of thing.

28 posted on 09/10/2002 8:22:49 AM PDT by TankerKC
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To: Tuco-bad
Guess they couldn't even have sent unarmed planes to try and distract the hijackers.

When someone is hell-bent on crashing a plane into a geographically fixed point, distraction ain't gonna work.

BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

Breast cancer research. Environmental cleanup. Stupid peacekeeping missions in Bosnia, Kosovo, and every other worthless s**thole where our national interests were not (and still aren't) at stake. Acquisition programs where we paid for everything up to and including production tooling (i.e., the really expensive stuff) and then terminated the program to "save money" (i.e., not very much money) by not building the hardware.

We're now looking at the price tag. The 82nd Airborne no longer has an organic armor battalion--the M8 Buford light tank was intended to replace the M551 Sheridan in the airborne armor role, but it got cancelled literally AFTER the last minute (United Defense still has a complete Buford factory, gathering dust and rust). The F-22 Raptor and RAH-66 Comanche were stretched out so far during the Clinton years that our ability to actually produce these aircraft--computer hardware that was bleeding edge when these aircraft went into RDT&E is now obsolete and going out of production unless we ramp up orders NOW. The Navy is headed to a point below the 300-ship mark unless we start building new ships right now. Clinton expended almost our entire stockpile of PGMs during Operation Allied Farce, and never ordered sufficient replacements.

29 posted on 09/10/2002 8:27:03 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
When someone is hell-bent on crashing a plane into a geographically fixed point, distraction ain't gonna work.

So are you are saying that our air defense did right by merely watching from the ground Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

30 posted on 09/10/2002 8:53:47 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
So are you are saying that our air defense did right by merely watching from the ground Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

No, I'm saying that the only way you were going to stop that bird was to have the interceptor pilot ram it.

I'm not the sort of guy to sit in a comfy command and control bunker and tell some young hotshot to commit suicide. I'd have to strap on an airplane and do it myself.

31 posted on 09/10/2002 8:56:55 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
I'm not the sort of guy to sit in a comfy command and control bunker and tell some young hotshot to commit suicide. I'd have to strap on an airplane and do it myself.

No one is telling any pilot to commit suicide.

What we are saying is DO something, distraction, etc., rather than watch Flight 77 hit the Penatagon.

32 posted on 09/10/2002 8:59:47 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
No one is telling any pilot to commit suicide.

The mission is to stop Flight 77 from hitting the Pentagon. There's only one thing that will work in the absence of armed airrcaft, and that's ramming.

What we are saying is DO something, distraction, etc., rather than watch Flight 77 hit the Penatagon.

"Doing something" in the name of looking like you're doing something is exactly what got us 9/11. We could--and should--have been serious about terrorism since 1993. We weren't; Clinton engaged in vigorous yet purposeless activity for eight years.

You need to do something effective. And in that case, if I were in tactical command at Andrews, and I knew that a plane was inbound towards the DC area, target unknown but undoubtedly of high value, I would have strapped on an unarmed F-16 and gone hunting. And I would have rammed Flight 77.

33 posted on 09/10/2002 9:09:53 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
You need to do something effective. And in that case, if I were in tactical command at Andrews, and I knew that a plane was inbound towards the DC area, target unknown but undoubtedly of high value, I would have strapped on an unarmed F-16 and gone hunting. And I would have rammed Flight 77.

And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Sounds inconsistant to me.

34 posted on 09/10/2002 9:20:07 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Read up on the kamikazes. Many pilots were approached, few accepted. The ones who didn't accept the mission were never criticized by the program's backers--because that decisionw was correctly viewed as a very personal one, with no predetermined "correct" answer. It required a lot of soul-searching on the part of the prospective kamikaze pilot.

Sounds inconsistant to me.

No, it's an understanding that you really can't morally order someone to do something like that.

You have a choice to either (a) do nothing and hope you can get armed aircraft up in time, or (b) go out and gain entrance to Valhalla on one's own hook through glorious self-sacrifice.

I'm not going to speak ill of the guy who doesn't go for Option B. It's an intensely personal decision. And I'm not going to speak ill of a guy who doesn't go for a PR-related action to LOOK like he's doing something.

35 posted on 09/10/2002 9:30:06 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Tuco-bad
"BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go"?

Why it all went to building "HAARP",of course...<=========Sarcasm
The HAARP (High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) transmitter is operated jointly by the U.S. Navy, Air Force and several universities and is located in Gakona, eastern Alaska.(But that's a whole other ball of wax.)LOL

36 posted on 09/10/2002 9:45:03 AM PDT by Pagey
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To: hc87
White House scrambled fighters with little or no armament.

Doesn't the knowledge that this is being broadcast to the entire world make everyone just a little more secure? /sarcasm

37 posted on 09/10/2002 9:46:58 AM PDT by dubyagee
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To: hc87
The other two "Vipers" only had a full load of 20-mm. "ball" or training rounds, not the high-explosive incendiary (HEI) bullets required for combat, and no air-to-air missiles.

I don't believe two planeloads of ball won't bring down a passenger liner. Shoot up the cockpit area and it'll come down. A 20mm bullet doesn't have to blow up to hurt.

38 posted on 09/10/2002 9:50:01 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Poohbah
And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Read up on the kamikazes.

I never advocated that our F-16 pilots be kamikazes.

I said repeatly that they might have been able to distract the hijackers.

39 posted on 09/10/2002 10:33:05 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: hc87
bump
40 posted on 09/10/2002 10:39:07 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Tuco-bad
I never advocated that our F-16 pilots be kamikazes.

Right. So, in essence, you've advocated--very forcefully, I might add--that you wanted the military to LOOK like it was doing something instead of ACTUALLY doing something useful. That is my point. You prefer symbolism to substance.

I said repeatly that they might have been able to distract the hijackers.

The only distraction that would have actually worked would have been the distraction of an F-16 or F/A-18 smacking into Flight 77 with a great deal of "smash" (closing velocity) on, or else hosing the plane with a load of 20 mike-mike, or shooting the plane with an air-to-air missile.

When someone is willing to fly an airplane into a building, their mind is literally not in our neat, ordered, rational world. What might work against someone like you (distraction maneuvers) will NOT work against someone who is stone crazy and fixated on doing something that horrific.

41 posted on 09/10/2002 10:41:23 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
Right. So, in essence, you've advocated--very forcefully, I might add--that you wanted the military to LOOK like it was doing something instead of ACTUALLY doing something useful. That is my point. You prefer symbolism to substance.

So you believe air defense did the proper thing by WATCHING on TV Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, as you believe nothing else could be done or tried?

42 posted on 09/10/2002 10:45:02 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: hc87
I think that on one of the news shows (20/20? DateLine?) that one NYC official
said that he'd ordered NYC helicopters (Port Authority/NYPD?) to
attempt to stop any incoming jet if possible after it was clear that
a terrorist attack was underway.

I can't recall if the official said he knew this was essentially ordering a suicide
ramming, but I think he and the pilots at least understood that was the deal.
43 posted on 09/10/2002 10:46:07 AM PDT by VOA
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To: Tuco-bad
So you believe air defense did the proper thing by WATCHING on TV Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, as you believe nothing else could be done or tried?

Yes. DO try to keep your panties unbunched and separate your emotional response from a reasoned response.

There was one thing that could be tried--but it wasn't something that could be ordered.

44 posted on 09/10/2002 10:50:42 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: B4Ranch
Yep...

Airliners arent hardened. Ball ammo will slice through its exterior like it was aluminium foil.

Even shedding through a section of wing...you wouldnt have to slice the wing off...just shooting through a section of it will bring it down...hydraulics, feul and electrical systems flow through an airliners wing.

An aweful thing considering the innocent life that would be lost but when you factor in the mathmatics of any impact on a major governmental facility and there isnt alot of drama...per se...you just do it.

45 posted on 09/10/2002 10:58:29 AM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VadeRetro
Good point. High-explosive incendiary (HEI) are are expensive compared to TP (target practice, what they called "ball" or training rounds in this article) rounds. A 20mm training round can do plenty of damage. It causes large ragged hole in an aircraft and the effects of air that normaly passes over a plane's surfaces do the rest to enlarge the hole. They can also take out an engine easily with it to force the plane to land.
46 posted on 09/10/2002 11:05:35 AM PDT by Hillarys Gate Cult
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To: VaBthang4
Airliners arent hardened. Ball ammo will slice through its exterior like it was aluminium foil.

Umm...I always thought aircraft exteriors WERE aluminum foil (well, kinda THICK foil, but not overly so).

47 posted on 09/10/2002 11:08:26 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: hc87
Wish I knew more about the source of this article.
Does anyone have links to Parts 1 and 2 of the series?

Thanks in advance.

48 posted on 09/10/2002 11:09:44 AM PDT by Publius6961
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To: Poohbah
~grin~

Well...I think that is stretching the spirit of the word "foil" but I'll go with that.

:o)

49 posted on 09/10/2002 12:41:02 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
Just my attitude that the only way I'd feel sanguine about someone hosing twenty-mike-mike in my direction is if I'm under ten meters of reinforced concrete :o)
50 posted on 09/10/2002 12:43:25 PM PDT by Poohbah
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