THEY JUST WON'T GET IT

New York Post ^ | 9/10/02 | DAVID GELERNTER

[kattracks]

September 10, 2002 -- THE towers fell; a chasm opened in Manhattan - and another chasm revealed itself in the moral make-up of the nation. The philosophical divide is so deep, it is hard to explain in words. On the other hand, not all the news is bad. Much is profoundly good.

[Monty22]

You know we got hit bad if uberliberal NY Times is even being pro-American.

[Quix]

I agree with much said.

HOWEVER, UNDERSTANDING IS FAR BETTER THAN IGNORANCE OR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

IT MAY COST pride, or sensibilities or comfort or a lot of things but understanding is still better than lack of understanding.

Even if sister was murdered--understanding could afford more peace and quasi-closure than lack of understanding gnawing endlessly at one's heart, mind and soul.

[Quix]

UNDERSTANDING

IS

*******NOT*******

EQUAL

TO

JUSTIFICATION OR EXCUSING SOMETHING.

[f.Christian]

The professor directly across the hall (a world-famous mathematician) responded by printing a flag on a departmental printer, posting it in the center of a bulletin boards and then, when some unknown person unposted it, printing and posting it again - and this time it stayed.

when some unknown person unposted it, ...hmmmm!

[Calico Cat]

It's not The New York Times, Monty22--it's the Post (owned by conservative Rupert Murdoch.) The Times wouldn't touch this one with a ten-foot pole.

[Texasforever]

The very thought that an 8th century culture can live in peace with a 21st century culture is to put a lie to any claim of "intellectualism" on the left. Navel gazing is no substitute for rational risk assessment.

[kattracks]

You're right. Understanding is a good thing. So let's all go nuts trying to understand a group of people who defy understanding. Then let's grind them into the ground.

[nopardons]

CODSWALLOP !

This isn't a " turn the other cheek " kind of thing. It's a life and death ( as well as death to the Chritian and Jewish faths ) kinda thing. Those who took the tome, to " understand " the mentality behind 9/11 know this. WHY DON'T YOU ?

" CLOSURE " ? Oh yes, those of us, who actually lost people we knew, and real patriots, want " closure" ; just NOT, evidently, what you appear to mean by that word and your example.

[Monty22]

Heh, sorry about that and thanks for the correction.

[earonthief]

Understanding is great... we've spent one whole year in undrestanding. Now it's "Their" turn to do some "understanding".

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

We understand very well, we understand that we have been attacked by a large to very large group, known as Islamists, who are determined to do many evil things for evil reasons. Seeing that we have a complete understanding of them, it is now time for us to make absolutely certain that none of these evil people are in a position to do any more harm. Unfortunately it is likely to require that we kill them all.

[Quix]

I'm greived by those facts but can readily concur. . . in principle. I might quibble about "all" but certainly all those with any hint of such stridency would be far safer to us dead than alive.

I hate death and violence, and for sure war.

But usually, death dealers only understand death--and quit dealing out death only upon their . . . DEATH.

[MadIvan]

Understanding in this instance is merely following the advice of Sun Tsu:

Know thy enemy, know thyself, in a thousand battles, a thousand victories.

We should acquire knowledge of the Islamists and about their culture for the purposes of assessing their weaknesses and destroying them.

Regards, Ivan

[nopardons]

Spot on; as always. :-)

[MadIvan]

Spot on; as always. :-)

I would hasten to add that one of their key weaknesses is their lack of appreciation for genuine ladies. ;)

Not a malady, I am happy to say, that I suffer from. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[I still care]

He was a professor in the humanities (although not at Yale, where I teach); he said, The right approach to the events of 9/11 is to try to understand just why those people hate us so much, or words to the effect

If someone even DARED to talk like that to me, I think I would turn around and seriously say, "You know, you are right. I am glad you agree with me. I have always thought we needed to understand Hitler better. He was SO misunderstood. What Nazi Germany REALLY needed was compassion. We just didn't understand the German Nazi culture at that time. Do you know how repressed they were by the superpowers?"

I could go on and on. I bet that would shut them up in a hurry.

[Redleg Duke]

Couldn't have been that bad...This was the New York Post.

[.45MAN]

Words don't escape you here!!! I just love your statement.. I might have to use it a few times today, hope you don't mind.....

[DB]

That "understanding" is brutally simple. The want to kill you because of what you believe and effects of what you believe on the surrounding world.

It is good to be able to identify those who want to kill you and to be able to predict their behavior if at all possible. Beyond that it soon becomes a waste of resources.

Did we need to understand Nazism or Japanese kamikazes to defeat them? I hope to never be able to fully "understand" either of these in my lifetime.

If you want to get down to it, is it possible to understand why someone killed your daughter? Is it possible to "understand" insanity and/or evil?

This isn't a trade dispute…

Just my opinion...

[ImpBill]

Nice find and a refreshing voice from academia. I opt for the hatred mode. I could care less why the sick bastards attacked us but I do know why ... ISLAM in it's fundamental core is a sick philosophy bent upon world domination or destruction.

KILL EM ALL!!

[MSSC6644]

If anyone wants to understand, well, at least get some idea of, what we're dealing with, I recommend two books: The Haj by Leon Uris and Whirlwind by James Clavell. They are novels, easy to read, but each sets out very clearly the evil that guides these cultures. And of course, they defy true understanding; we in the west have no real point of reference - I doubt even Hitler would have slaughtered his own children, now Stalin, that's another thing.

[kattracks]

Thank you, be my guest. :o)

[7thson]

Very good post.

A HANDSHAKE doesn't mean "I love you," it means "I accept you." By saying what he did, the professor offered the terrorists a metaphorical handshake.

He might say, "But I didn't mean to do that; it's just that I was too thick or dumb or obtuse to grasp what I was saying." (Possibly he wouldn't use exactly those words.)

Fine, professor; but it looks as if a figurative handshake is exactly what you intended, and what counts in this world is what you say, not what you intended to say.

From a different viewpoint: If you do business with a man, you are stamping him with your personal seal of approval. This "personal seal" doesn't assert much - no one expects you to conduct a detailed investigation beforehand - but it does tell the world that, so far as you know, the fellow is a minimally decent human being.

Honorable people do not invite impenitent murderers to lunch, or buy used cars from them.

What was the message we - the United States of America - sent the world when Clinton was elected President - twice!!! I think we showed the world a wall with no mortar, and evil ba****ds such as Bin Laden and Saddam have taken advantage of the situation.

The talk show people - Rush, Hannity, et al; are making a big deal about what Clinton said in 1998 about Iraq and the support he got from DemoRATs and what GW is saying today and the non-support he is getting from DemoRATs. What I have not heard anyone say is that the reason the Dems supported Clinton in 1998 is that they knew he was full of s**t. They knew he would do nothing. And the world knew it then, also. That is why the world was not concerned back then. They are concerned now, because they know that GW is going to do something.

[John O]

Some Christians will say that, although it is natural to hate a man who murdered your sister, you must overcome that hatred. But there is a big difference between having an emotion and then - by dint of struggle or faith - overcoming it and never having had it at all.

And those so called Christians would be wrong, The bible commands us to hate evil. Now we are also commanded to forgive them. And we must indeed forgive them. That forgiveness however does not prevent us from dispensing justice. Forgiveness has nothing to do with justice. I have already forgiven the islamikazis. I also cry out to God for justice to be done (first save them and then remove them from this world. If they refuse to be saved then just remove them)

God Save America (Please)

[John O]

HOWEVER, UNDERSTANDING IS FAR BETTER THAN IGNORANCE OR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

If someone attacks me I already understand everything about them that I need to know. They are no longer qualified to live on this planet. Their motivation doesn't matter (who cares what a dead enemy thinks)

GSA(P)

[John O]

Well said and so true.

GSA(P)

[John O]

We should acquire knowledge of the Islamists and about their culture for the purposes of assessing their weaknesses and destroying them.

While I would agree with you if this was a limited engagement I have to disagree in these circumstances. This war will end with either the death of the west or the death of islam as a viable religion/belief system. There will be no islamics at the end of it. They will either have converted or died. While I'd prefer them to convert I'd still be content if they just died.

If you are aiming to eradicate a culture you don't need to understand the culture, you just need to kill (or change) all it's adherents

GSA(P)

[MadIvan]

If you are aiming to eradicate a culture you don't need to understand the culture, you just need to kill (or change) all it's adherents

As the USSR showed, it's sometimes useful to know their culture to assist its implosion. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[iconoclast]

Nice find and a refreshing voice from academia.

Nice find, indeed!

Gelernter is as good in his own way as Steyn. The only reason we don't see more of him here is that he is a teacher first and secondarily a writer.

He has a unique story of his own. He's worth looking up.

[John O]

As the USSR showed, it's sometimes useful to know their culture to assist its implosion. ;)

This is true, however, the culture in the USSR had something of value to contribute to the world (the people's belief system was basically good but the leadership and government system was corrupt). I see no value whatsoever in the islamic culture (the people's belief system is evil and the leadership is evil). The islamics can either abandon the culture and let it die or die with it. I don't need to understand someone to drop a bomb on them.

GSA(P)

[MadIvan]

I see no value whatsoever in the islamic culture (the people's belief system is evil and the leadership is evil). The islamics can either abandon the culture and let it die or die with it. I don't need to understand someone to drop a bomb on them.

No, but if you want to provoke a revolution, like would be the intelligent strategy in Iran, then it becomes very useful.

Regards, Ivan

[Quix]

I've been forced to realize with increasing weight the thunderous emphasis God places on "VENGEANCE IS MINE, says The Lord."

I don't have any big problem with construing it that God will use the U.S. to discipline Iraq. . . . and the resulting furor to discipline the U.S.

I don't have any big problem with appropriate governments of God fearing people putting evil in it's place according to God's leading. Arrogance and taking vengeance unduly unto ourselves are both very hazardous. No rational person would choose the results of acting in God's place without HIS permission and authority. The consequences are likely to be far worse than you can imagine.

But mostly I was just trying to say I prefer understanding compared to lack of understanding; knowledge to lack of knowledge. I may understand why my child misbehaved. The child may still need stern discipline.

Actually, in terms of parents, in virtually all cases, I think a parent is amiss to discipline a child without understanding. Life and death/bodily harm situations could be exceptions.

I'm historically about as much of a hawk as you'll find in the class of 1965. I like to think I'm much wiser about my hawkishness than I was 37 years ago.

I still believe that at some point, there's no arguing with evil. It has to be obliterated. I don't think human methods are likely to obliterate much evil--perhaps exterminate some of it's methods and some of it's henchmen--but mostly we just tend to show the capacity to spread it around a lot. Still, at times, it's important to exterminate some of it's methods and henchmen in some locales.

My UN retiree friend in Hawaii. His organization is trying to bring about world peace. Admirable goal for someone claiming to be a Christian [since he doesn't see Christ Jesus as the only door I don't think much of his claim to be a Christian but anyway]. But he's working with folk who I believe clearly are involved in setting the stage for satan's man who will WAGE WAR WITH PEACE.

Peace is a grand goal. Blessed are the peace makers. Would I want to work to set supreme evil in place under the charade of a false peace. I hope NOT!

Stomping Iraq, to my mind is a fitting goal. I believe they have ALREADY deployed and used weapons of mass destruction on the U.S. probably the Nile virus for example. I believe they were up to their tutu's involved with Al Q. I believe we should have stomped them 12 SEP 2001 VERY DEVASTATINGLY.

But the consequences of stomping them are likely to be less than ideal. The consequences of the NWO mandated peace will be very less than ideal.

Given such paradoxes and complexities, UNDERSTANDING ought to be a constant companion. Choosing ignorance or willful blindness is likely to be deadly, at least costly.

Maybe I've now been clearer, maybe I've been more obtuse. I hope the former.

[Quix]

Oh, I wouldn't want to expend undue energy or bother trying to understand all the factors contributing to mad dog Jihad. The basics are clear enough and don't require a lot of intense thought much less investigation.

But I wouldn't want to be part of mindless, knee-jerk, arrogant retaliation, either. We don't need to stoop to their level to level their capital.

[John O]

No, but if you want to provoke a revolution, like would be the intelligent strategy in Iran, then it becomes very useful.

I guess I can agree with you if you want to provoke a revolution (as I believe our President does). I would prefer wiping every last living being out of that land and starting over. The enemy cannot attack when the last enemy is dead (men, women, children, pets, distant relatives etc. They have no right to exist once they are guilty of attacking us.)

God Save America (Please)

[Sabertooth]

Even if sister was murdered--understanding could afford more peace and quasi-closure than lack of understanding gnawing endlessly at one's heart, mind and soul.

Closure is only as secure as the cell-door or coffin-lid of the perpetrator.

Should Gelernter shake hands with the man who maimed him, the Unabomber? Should he try to understand him?

[Quix]

Welllllll, to argue the other side for a bit. . .

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.

I say this having been wronged incalculably by my closest bosom Christian Brothers. . . . as well as many others over the years!

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.

I'm happy to let God deal with vengeance.

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.

I would PREFER that the Brothers turned enemies would understand themselves and me better. But I can't MAKE that happen.

I'm willing to do what I can to trust God's promises to work it all out; restore; advance broken relationships.

I'm happy to learn more about Christ's suffering, brokenness and humility in however a small mortal part as best I'm able by His Grace to learn.

I could imagine killing someone who was slaughtering innocents or people close to me. But on the whole, I hate violence and want nothing to do with it. As a teen, I had a hard time killing deer for needed food.

But I don't mind paying tax dollars to stomp Saddddammmnn.

I've known of counselees who agonized for YEARS over WHY somone mangled or murdered or whatever their loved one. Understanding would have at least enabled them to have slept better at nights. Wouldn't have resurrected their loved one. Wouldn't have turned the criminal into a friend. But they would have had a TYPE and MEASURE of closure that would have afforded them more release from the pain than they'd yet achieved.

Life has plenty of puzzles and complexities as well as paradoxes. Understanding seems to be a far better way to navigate and perceive them than ignorance.

[gunshy]

If a group of ultra right wing conservative militia types were to go onto the campi of this country and kill 3000 or so of these liberal professors, would the liberals rush to try and understand why those who did it hated them so?. I think not.

[Quix]

I agree it's not just a trade dispute.

And, I believe understanding is important IN PART to be better forewarned, protected AS WELL AS to better administer discipline--even terminal discipline when that's called for, as I BELIEVE IT IS IN THIS SITUATION.

Oh, I'm a shrink so understanding human behavior is probably a passion of mine. . . virtually regardless.

Understanding evil? I believe it's basically pride. Satan wanted to be God or at least as God. God said NO! God was and is and always will be BIGGER. God won. God is winning. God will always win. Satan is not got's negative equal. Satan is a troublesome gnat useful for affording a robust free will oriented boot camp to train future rulers for endless ages and countless galaxies, evidently.

I think basically--evil = pride gone to seed.

[Sabertooth]

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.

Does God forgive the unrepentant? Should we?

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.

Your forgiveness holds no such power over evil.
You can not change hearts.

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.

I don't need to forgive my enemies to let go of bitterness or resentment. I simply give those emotions over to God and let Him worry about it

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.

Scripturally unfounded.

Governments are placed over men with divine authority to uphold justice.

That they might not always do so changes nothing, God keeps no prisons in this life.

[Bernard Marx]

He has a unique story of his own. He's worth looking up.

David Gelernter does indeed have a remarkable story. He's the author of "Drawing Life: Surviving the Unabomber." On June 24, 1993 he opened a package that exploded and nearly killed him. He lost most of his right hand and suffered other serious physical damage.

The book is a very personal memoir about his recovery and journey of personal rediscovery. It contains a strong message about the triviality of current American culture. "We are so busy peeking pruriently into the twisted minds of madmen tht we have forgotten that acts of violence are not significant because they tickle our bloodlust, but because they force us to rethink our priorities," he writes.

No one paid much attention to David's tragedy at the time, and when the Unabomber was arrested the Leftist media sent us the message that he was simply an idealist gone bad (you could make the same argument about Lenin but they didn't mention that). This book is a very good read and more than usually significant in light of September 11, 2001. America needs to rethink its priorities the same way David did.

[Quix]

How can I be THAT far from you. Don't think I am.
-----

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.
Does God forgive the unrepentant? Should we?

Q: Actually, I DO believe that I must forgive ALL if I wish to be forgiven. God is the judge. Doesn't mean I become blind and silly about it. There is a time for Christians to judge behavior etc. And even a time to execute GOD'S judgement on the unrepentant--but WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT GOD IS INSTRUCTING US TO DO SUCH. . . and that we have that POSITION AND AUTHORITY GIVEN OF HIM IN THE SITUATION, IMHO.

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.
Your forgiveness holds no such power over evil.
You can not change hearts.

Q: In principle, I'd go a long ways toward agreeing that my forgiveness in and of itself holds no power over evil.

Q: HOWEVER, RELATIONALLY AND FUNCTIONALLY, I'VE DISCOVERED THAT'S NOT QUITE AS TRUE AS YOU MIGHT THINK--IN THE *CONTEXT* OF PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. Forgiveness can be INCREDIBLY POWERFUL AND AN INCREDIBLY POTENT CHANNEL FOR HOLY SPIRIT TO WORK THROUGH. AGREED--ONLY HE CHANGES HEARTS.

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.
I don't need to forgive my enemies to let go of bitterness or resentment. I simply give those emotions over to God and let Him worry about it

Q: I believe even saying The Lord's Prayer authentically requires me to FORGIVE ALL--if I want ALL forgiveness.

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.
Scripturally unfounded.

Q: God insists that VENGEANCE IS HIS AND HIS ALONE. That's what I was speaking to. It's NOT my place to decide on my own sensibilities to go out and obliterate Iraq. IF I'm in the appropriate governmental position and am convinced God is directing me to do so--fine. No problem per se.

Governments are placed over men with divine authority to uphold justice.

That they might not always do so changes nothing, God keeps no prisons in this life.

Q: But He sure used an Egyptian prison to train and purify Joseph.

[Sabertooth]

Actually, I DO believe that I must forgive ALL if I wish to be forgiven.

Off-topic. Gelernter and I are talking about the unrepentant.

I believe even saying The Lord's Prayer authentically requires me to FORGIVE ALL--if I want ALL forgiveness.

No, inherent in the lines, "Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us," is the repentance of the one saying the prayer. We are not charged to forgive all, only those who have tresspassed against us and sincerely repented.

Again, does God forgive all, or only the repentant?

[Quix]

Does God forgive all or only the repentant.

OH I DEFINITELY BELIEVE THAT REPENTANCE IS CRUCIAL, ESSENTIAL AT GOD'S LEVEL.

I still believe HE asks of Me at my level of awareness, understanding, finiteness to forgive all and release the offenders to Him. . . . if judgement, His business; if Forgiveness at His level, His business.

There's even plenty of teaching around that if we don't, we somehow to SOME degree limit God's dealings with the offender by tying the offender up in our unforgiveness. This, of course, regarding those one is in relationship or have been in relationship with.

I know that in terms of psychological and spiritual health, this has been essential for me and for the more spiritual people I've known.

[Quix]

The prayer is NOT written:

"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us who have repented."

And I personally don't believe it's implied.

[Quix]

I personally believe, think that between God and I--whether I'm willing to forgive ALL and TRUST ALL to God is an issue of my Trusting God between He and I.

And on that score, HE INSISTS that I TRUST HIM regardless.

I prefer to choose to do that as well as I'm able, by His Grace to do so.

[Quix]

I think inherent in the harboring unforgiveness--even against the unrepentant is the LACK OF TRUSTING GOD TO DEAL WITH THE SCOUNDRAL and clinging to OUR OWN RIGHTS [which we are to have surrendered to Christ] to punish the scoundral according to our 100% awareness of 100% of the facts [NOT!] and our 100% perfect anger [NOT!] and our 100% perfect methods, manner, timing and degree of disciplne, retribution etc. [NOT!].

God says--NO! None of that--That's my turf. I alone have perfect anger. I alone have perfect knowledge. I alone can execute perfect vengeance. It is poison you must not touch except as I place a task and means in your hands.

Your duty, health and even your forgiveness is to be utterly forgiving. Christ said of the Pharisees while on the Cross--Father--forgive them for they know not what they do.

The pharisees were unrepentant. I suspect The Father did. Whether the Father did or not, that was Christ's attitude and choice. I choose to follow Him in matters of Forgiveness and everything else I can follow Him in.

[Sabertooth]

The prayer is NOT written:

"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us who have repented."

And I personally don't believe it's implied.

When we pray, "Forgive us our trespasses," we are being repentant for having tresspassed against God.

When we pray, "As we forgive those who have tresspassed against us," we are creating a simile between God's forgiveness and ours. The simile is completed in this way:

As God forgives us our tresspasses when we are repentent, so must we forgive those who have tresspassed against us when they are repentent.

Or, to put it another way, as we forgive those who tresspass against when they are repentent, so do we ask God to forgive us our tresspasses when we are repentent.

The properties of the simile are commutative.

[Quix]

I understand your excellent explanation.

Guess it doesn't alter my bias.

I also have a bias against reading even simile's into Scripture.

But your point is reasonable. I just disagree with it.

I do appreciate you making it so patiently.

[Sabertooth]

I also have a bias against reading even simile's into Scripture.

The simile is not read into the Scripture, it is written into it... "Let A be as B."

Didn't Jesus say, "He who has an ear, let him hear," in reference to one of his parables? Aren't all parables simles?

What is the root of your bias?