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To: jstone78; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr; babylonian; Crazymonarch; f.Christian; ...
Jews for Jesus™  is not a true messianic organization.  Further it tried to trademark the name of G~d which is stinking fruit and is about filthy lucre!  The doctrine of Replacement Theology (that Christians REPLACED Jews) is false.  All holding it are boasting against the branches (Rom 11:18) and should read Romans Ch. 11 carefully and repent of it otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  Rom. 11:22.  The oracles were given to the Jews, not to the gentiles.   Rom 3:2.

The church is awash in false doctrines and needs to repent and gets its act together and not try to "convert" the Jews to Christian apostacy.  Yeshua Ha Mashiach (the Lord Jesus Christ) is big enough to say what He wants to any Jews any day without Jews for Jesus™ and has been putting in personal appearances to them for years.  For Jews to resists Jews for Jesus™ is not anti-Christian bigotry.  It is wisdom.

This is from a Messianic homepage:  What Is Messianic Judaism -- Isn't It Just Christianity?

Messianic Judaism is Biblical Judaism with Yeshua as the Messiah. We believe that Yeshua (Jesus) was the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Messianic Judaism has more in common with other branches of Judaism than with Christianity in spite of sharing the belief that Yeshua was Messiah. Messianics see Yeshua as a Jewish rabbi who taught His disciples the Torah, even commissioning them to take His Torah teachings to the rest of the world. Christianity sees Jesus as one who 'did away with Torah (law)' and 'freed us' from needing to obey G-d's Word. G-d never changes nor does His Word. I believe any doctrine *not* based on a solid Torah foundation will be faulty and lead many astray. Torahlessness (lawlessness) is that old religion of hasatan, the fallen one who has tried to lure man away from G-d's instructions from day one. Hasatan has succeeded not only in drawing the  church away from Torah but also in making lawlessness even seem the godlier choice. Lawlessness is a scary deception and is a major reason why many Messianics have attempted to separate themselves from the mainstream church.

Without a solid foundation built on G-d's TaNaKh (sadly referred to as "old testament' within the church), many in the mainstream Christian churches have been teaching that the church replaces Israel in G-d's plan; many teach that the promised earthly messianic kingdom has been replaced with a spiritual kingdom for the church; most believe that obeying G-d's Holy Torah (law) is somehow useless or irrelevant in our lives -- even likening Torah obedience to "earning" the free gift of salvation. These beliefs result from interpreting the Brit Chadasha (new testament) apart from it's TaNaKh foundation. Sadly the church seems to believe it can exist apart from its TaNaKh foundation and Jewish roots. Such church teachings reflect a non-Jewish mindset and are not considered part of Messianic Judaism.

But Aren't Messianic Jews And Hebrew Christians The Same Thing?

Sadly, Hebrew Christians are Jewish brethren who have been assimilated into the mainstream church. Some may observe the Holy Days --- but their basic belief system remains that of Christianity. A Messianic Jew is one who practices Messianic Judaism -- his beliefs rest on a solid foundation of Torah. Interestingly, the two labels themselves (Messianic Jew & Hebrew Christian) show each's differing emphasis: a Messianic Jew emphasizes personal lineage: a Messianic Jew is a certain type of Jew (a Jew who happens to believe in Yeshua). Whereas Hebrew Christian emphasizes the belief system: a Hebrew Christian is a certain type of Christian (a Christian who happens to be Jewish).  Gentiles who practice Messianic Judaism refer to themselves in more vague terms, such as "Messianics" or "Messianic Believers" (terms which fit both Jewish and gentiles believers).

Then Why Do People Say Messianic Judaism Is Christianity?

Ignorance? Broad generalization? A refusal to let Messianic Judaism define itself? It is confusing when other branches of Judaism (as well as some within the church) call all believers in Yeshua "Christians" regardless of their view on Torah. More recently I have been bothered that some Christians are deciding to call themselves Messianics even though their belief system remains unchanged from that of Christianity. I only hope as more people study the Messianic Mov't, they will learn the many differences between these two very different belief systems. Messianic Judaism should the best of both worlds: True Biblical Judaism *with* Messiah -- exactly as G-d intended!

This is from the same messianic website:  We are NOT Jews for Jesus
Shalom Chaverim,  Let me begin by stating that this site is not affiliated with Jews For Jesus. We probably need to define what we mean by "Messianic" since many consider Jews For Jesus a Messianic organization. I consider Jews For Jesus a Christian organization. Moishe Rosen, founder of Jews For Jesus, is a Christian missionary, schooled in a standard bible college and not trained as a rabbi. The Jews For Jesus organization has worked diligently teaching Jesus to the non-believing Jewish people, but it is Christianity being taught and not Messianic Judaism (in spite of JFJ efforts to make the two terms synonymous). I would like to see evangelism to the Jewish people which includes teaching Torah observance.

I see the Messianic Mov't as a return to Biblical Judaism, removing 2000 years of non-biblical teachings and restoring Torah observance to the body of believers. It seems too much effort is going into trying to bring down the Messianic Mov't and turn into just another Christian denomination, I find that sad. And those who protest this Christianization are called divisive. If you remove the elements that set Messianics apart from Christianity, you lose what drew people to the truth of Messianic Judaism in the first place.

I think Christianity is threatened by our return to Torah truths and by our refusal to tolerate the pagan influences that have become a part of Christian doctrine. The Messianic emphasis on Torah is taken as somehow undermining the work of Yeshua. And our rejection of pagan influences is taken as judgemental, as causing strife within the body of Messiah. But Scripture tells us to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Sha'ul did not teach us tolerate false doctrines --- yet Christianity asks that for the sake of "unity" Messianics should overlook these differences and be a 'team player. That's not what we are called to do.

 Would Your Church Allow You To Be Like Jesus? -- [MUST READ!]
63 posted on 09/15/2002 7:19:36 PM PDT by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
Thanks so much for that bookmark, it's a good one!
69 posted on 09/15/2002 7:29:46 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: 2sheep
The messianic community is not monolithic. There are some congregations which work closely with Jews for Jesus, and there are some which do not.

In the same vein, the Episcopalians are also a very diverse group. Some Episcopalians share the same Christian conservatism of Pat Robertson (although he is not Eiscopalian, himself), while a few Episcopalians like ex-Bishop John Spong are radical agnostic leftists, who are no more doctrinally "Christian" than Noam Chomsky. Most Episcopalians lie somewhere in between.
75 posted on 09/15/2002 7:58:22 PM PDT by jstone78
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To: 2sheep
>The oracles were given to the Jews, not to the gentiles.   Rom 3:2.

You cannot take this verse out of context, nor should you misquote scripture.  Romans does NOT say "...not to the gentiles"  That is your interpretation, and you improperly ascribed it to Paul.

Romans:
     1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
     2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.

The correct context is the oracles were given to the Southern Kingdom for safekeeping while the Northern Kingdom went off into Assyrian captivity and diaspora, losing virtually all links to their Israelite heritage.  No more, no less.

You interpretation suggests it is Jews vs Gentiles, while in fact it is the Southern Kingdom (known as Jews by the time of Paul) vs. the the Northern Kingdom (who were the Celts by the time of Paul).  The Northern Kingdom Israelites were never called Gentiles. Nor were they ever called Jews..

82 posted on 09/15/2002 8:40:17 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: 2sheep
Jewish Christians should observe Jewish laws as a witness unto their fellow unsaved Jews that they are living a holy life. They are not absolutely obligated to it, however. This is as opposed to Jews before Jesus, who were required by the old covenant to keep the Law (even though they never could).

As for the claim that the trademark on "Jews for Jesus" is mammon-centered... that's kosher hogwash. They do not license their trademark to anybody for cash. They would not license it even for Bill Gates' entire fortune. They do keep impostors from popping up and claiming that they are the same organization.
92 posted on 09/15/2002 10:57:01 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: 2sheep
The oracles were given to the Jews, not to the gentiles. Rom 3:2.

Are you in the habit of deliberately misquoting the Bible? No Bible translation reads that way. A special place in Hell is reserved for people who reword the Bible to say what they want it to say!

93 posted on 09/15/2002 11:02:41 PM PDT by Mare Tranquilitatus
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To: 2sheep
Revelation 2:7
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."'

Proverbs 3:18
She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her.

Paradise of God

PaRDeS - The Hebrew/Aramaic word PARDES is spelled in Hebrew and Aramaic without vowels as PRDS. PaRDeS refers to a park or garden, esp. the Garden of Eden. ...
http://www.nazarene.net/Hermeneutics/Pardes.html

Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my Torah, And let your heart watch over my commands; 2 For length of days and long life And peace they add to you.

159 posted on 09/17/2002 4:49:38 AM PDT by Jeremiah Jr
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