[OWK]

"The tree of freedom must; from time to time; be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and saints"

Tree of liberty... patriots and tyrants.

The words belong to Jefferson.

They address the need for free men to stand in defense of their own rights (against the state).

They do not address the typical forays of military adventurism our current government sees fit to involve us in... all over the globe.

The founders of this nation had no interest in such things, and in fact warned us quite strenuously of the dangers of these entanglements.

But as with most things... we've ignored them.

[walkingdead]

I agree, and sorry about the wording, I am doing it from memory, and undoubtely should remember it correctly, but it is early Monday.

Now, as far as military advernturism, what do you mean? Iraq? Is that whats really troubling you? Maybe your more of an isolationist, ever thought of that route?

Oh, and for the record, I think we have bigger fish to fry than Saddam (China, North Korea), but a little appetizer never hurt anyone right?.... Do you really think he wouldn't have been happier with 9/11 if it were 30 million dead as apposed to 3 thousand? We cannot wait for a smoking gun, because the smoking gun will be a smoking mushroom cloud. (aka Rice?)

[Polybius]

The words belong to Jefferson. They address the need for free men to stand in defense of their own rights (against the state). They do not address the typical forays of military adventurism our current government sees fit to involve us in... all over the globe. The founders of this nation had no interest in such things, and in fact warned us quite strenuously of the dangers of these entanglements.

The Undeclared Naval War with France 1798-1800 and the First Barbary War 1801-1805 don't count as foreign wars in your view of History?

Prior to becoming President and waging war against the Barbary States on the other side of the Atlantic, Thomas Jefferson wrote in his autobiography that in 1785 and 1786 he unsuccessfully "endeavored to form an association of the powers subject to habitual depredation from them. I accordingly prepared, and proposed to their ministers at Paris, for consultation with their governments, articles of a special confederation." Jefferson argued that "The object of the convention shall be to compel the piratical States to perpetual peace." Jefferson prepared a detailed plan for the interested states. "Portugal, Naples, the two Sicilies, Venice, Malta, Denmark and Sweden were favorably disposed to such an association," Jefferson remembered, but there were "apprehensions" that England and France would follow their own paths, "and so it fell through."

Jefferson understood that not only "The State" but also foreign enemies can constitute a threat to a free man's rights. That is why Jefferson attempted to form an alliance with European powers to fight the Barbary States and actually warred on the Barbary States when he was President.

Some Founding Fathers may have warned against alliances for alliances sake when the U.S. had no vital interest involved. However, Jeffersons efforts to create an alliance against the Barbary States demonstrates that Jefferson had no qualms in trying to create an alliance for a specific purpose that served America's foreign interets.