Posted on 10/22/2002 11:24:51 AM PDT by shrinkermd
This is, I think, the crux of the matter. American women do not seem to be satisfied with 'merely' being women.
They think that whatever was traditionally assumed was 'theirs' was merely a method of ensalvement, and went roaring after the rhetorical "male's authority" and "power". That also meant that they wanted whatever authority was theirs to begin with as well, and they assumed it was inconsequential merely because males automatically ceded it to them.
Foreign women are not raised to believe that they must constantly battle all males to attain power and authority. They are encouraged throughout their formative years and beyond to develop and strengthen their instinct to bear and nurture the young, and from youth that it is natural and acceptable to appear attractive and appealing to the opposite sex. American women are raised in a culture that surrounds them from infancy with multiple occurances of hearing terms such as "women's rights", "feminism", "N.O.W", and "Male Cheuvanist Pig" to name but a few -and yes, I know there are more, no need to list them all. Sorry if I am a bit off on the spelling, as I've not had the opportunity to practice it much, unlike certain others I could name. I am certain that there will be some women gladly willing to correct Me on it. (Hint; mates, these are NOT the type of nice, conservative -and ladylike- women we are seeking.) (Come to think of it, at least two posters on this very thread immediately come to mind.)
These utterances are the verbal equivalence of raising a clenched fist in the face of a male; i.e., challenging and confrontational. Men are not naturally inclined to view women in a combative light, and it makes them uneasy when they present themselves in such a manner. Foreign women do not have this underlying attitude, and accept their femininity without thinking unduly upon it, or worrying that it might 'weaken' their 'womanhood' or 'strengthen the patriarchy'.
No Worries, luv. As you can undoubtedly infer by My delayed response, I too have matters other than posting here sometimes demanding My immediate attention. As well, please; do, think upon what has been stated so far. I am genuinely interested in attempting to establish some method whereby we can all better understand each other. As I have repeatedly stated, It is not My desire to remain without a special someone in My life, and whatever I can do to encourage that occurrance for Myself and others is something I consider a worthwhile goal.
Actually, forwardness in and of itself is not unattractive. I have had many ladies approach Me in a forward manner that I found quite attractive. It is more the method in which the approach was made that defined it either way. You can be quite ladylike and ask Me for a dance (they do), or swagger up to Me and say "Hey, wanna dance?" Of the two approaches, which would you perceive is the most likely to immediately capture My interest?
This is not to say that a woman of, ummm... shall we say, somewhat less than "fully refined" mannerisms is not attractive, it is the manner in which the approach is made that determines it. I have had that same utterance made to Me from this endearingly sweet lass, who very shyly asked it with downcast eyes and a very soft note in her voice -and who immediately enchanted Me into accepting.
As far as the "how's it hanging?" question, speaking from personal experience: yes. Charm School, in My opinion, should indeed be mandated for both sexes, especially in this day and age, as no one seems to be providing instructions anymore on how to properly interact with grace and manners both with the opposite sex and society in general.
Agreed about the american women. This also occurs in men, of course, but the prevalence in american women is totally unlike the attitude of foreign national women, who thoroughly understand the concept of 'sacrifice' for the family.
"Sacrifice" is not the singular issue I find attractive in these women, although that is certainly part of it. It is the totality of their attitude that arouses My interest and retains My attention.
I am assuming you are one of the few mannerly, etc., lasses referred to in the previous comment, based upon your previous postings. There will always be exceptions to the rule. Just as you claim to be one of those better individuals -and I believe you- and seem genuinely interested in refining and improving your femininity -just as I am interested in the same for My masculinity and manners-, rest assured that we are out there. I must admit, as well, that as much as I attempt to act the gentleman, I have had so little opportunity over the years to do so, that I do not always remember to respond in a gentlemanly manner. Or the times when I do act in that manner I really receive the strangest looks... as if I were up to something or attempting some manner of sarcasm.
Volume was not the issue; brazen trumpeting arrogance is.
Although I personally find loud women rather difficult to endure on a continual basis, I have a very good friend named Berta, of Portugese descent whom I have known now for over two decades -and she is loud, outspoken, and very self-confident.
She is also continually happy, smiling, laughing, and has no problem with smilingly sidling up to Me and continually flirting outrageously, with many sexual innuendo-laden comments making up the majority of the dialogue.*laugh* She also works full time so she can afford a little apartment of her own, visits constantly at her mother's place to take care of her, as she (her mum) is in failing health, is continually driving all over the place on the week-ends to make sure her siblings and their spouses and children are in good health at their various domiciles, is still hoping to find a good man to marry and settle down with, and all in all, just has a heart of gold -and I love her to death (not romantically) and will do any favour she asks Me.
Although My personal preference is for a more soft-spoken individual, I hope you can understand why I will gladly expend any effort to assist her, and enjoy spending time with her. She quite deserves anything it is in My power to assist with.
Glad to hear it, mate. Now if only we can get the american women back to a non-attitudinal femininity such as the foreign national women possess, there is yet hope for this country.
Not to My face. More the impression I receive is either a deep suspicion as if I were about to try some manner of trick upon them, or as if it were a shoddily attempted 'pass' at them. Just makes Me shake My head. *sigh*
So true. Why is it that american women cannot understand this, and bristle with outrage and hostility when we notice the difference? Do they think that if they get 'offended' it will change? Are they expecting us to immediately change our minds and tell them "Oh, oh, I'm bloody sorry Miss. Really, you are quite the Epic of Femininity along with all the other american women, and women of other countries are not even on the same playing field -nor should they be!"
True, they do browbeat us into submission in other areas, but you cannot change what someone finds appealing.
I do not dis-like loudness. I get that way Myself sometimes when I've had a few too many cold ones. I was raised in a quiet family setting, and have had some personal, ummm... "disagreements" in My youth with some loud and rather obnoxious individuals is all. That is why I have to struggle with it for long periods of it at a time. I happen to have known some nice girls in My past that were a bit loud, and it was actually appreciated quite a bit at some appropriate times, -if you know what I mean. :)
We can all argue exactly when the roots of the difficulty began, but I think there can be no doubt when the turning point was, and it was indeed during that previously-specified timeframe. As far as 'too simplistic', I believe I will take that with a grain of salt, if you don't mind. The initial impression that comes to My mind is that you are (laughingly, I hope) taking the opportunity to fire back My previous identical summation to you back at Me.
To Me, 'too simplistic' is when someone offers no concrete or specific suggestion in response to a question or as an opinion. Something along the lines of: "We really need to be nicer to one another", instead of "I believe we can solve the problem by taking this specific action". Moreover, the action must be a realistic one, or the suggestion is invalid in its totality. Which brings us to the 'bell the cat' scenario...
Firstly, let Me preface this by mentioning that in no way do I mean this as a personal attack, as I have been impressed with your postings thus far (and Desdemona as well, but it was your post that initiated the comment), and My respect for you has only risen as this thread has progressed. I presented the comment(s) in the spirit of a healthy debate and opportunities for constructive criticism and suggestions, with all concerned. The length of this thread and the resulting commentary hopefully validates My attempts.
Anyways;
Many years ago, there lived a group of mice in a particular building, whose lot in life appeared blissful. There was plenty of room to run around in, and many breadcrumbs and bits of cheese to nibble on, and they were consequently well-fed and content with their lives. They ran around as they wished, generally did as they pleased, and their happy families grew in numbers as time went on.
One day, however, someone noticed that a neighbor mouse had not been seen for some time, and mentioned it to another. The other mouse volunteered to go and see what the too-long gone mouse was up to, and see if he was up to any mischief. After some more time had passed, and neither the gone-searching mouse or the initially missing mouse returned, the first mouse became worried.
He went to one of the leaders of the community, a mouse named Mike, and related the tale of the two missing mice. Mike immediately dispatched three other mice to go and search for the missing two in the area they were last known to be in, and to report back promptly with the two or with information as to why they were acting in a manner to cause the community concern about their welfare. Meanwhile, word had spread about the missing mice, and other members of the little community began to gather about.
After a bit of time had passed, one of the three searcher mice staggered into the room where Mike mouse and the others were waiting, and everyone could see immediately that all was not well. The returning mouse literally staggered, limping into the room and he had some long, bloody gashes along most of one side and flank, and down his back as well.
"Chief!", he cried, "It were 'orrible! We was scampering along t' the site where that lot 'ad gone off to, an' we was pounced upon by this great, dark, monster of a CAT!!! 'E got the other two, an' I only barely got away, I did!"
Well, this started a gasp of horror from the male mice present, and much screams of fear from the lady mice and wails from those of the little mice in response to the terror of their parents (not really having ever seen a cat before). Pandemonium reigned in the room, and everyone was chattering away in panic as the news hit them. Everyone was shouting and gesticulating, and the uproar was only causing more panic as more and more mice arrived to find out what the fuss was all about.
This went on for some time until finally Mike mouse began shouting for order, and the room calmed down enough that he could be more easily heard.
"Right, then, you lot!", he said, "Now we all knows what we're up against, we need to decide what to bloody to about the cobber. Anyone got any suggestions?"
There was much muttering, and hemming and hawing, and whispering back and forth, until finally, one mouse hesitantly raised his hand and said "Well, we can't foit a blody cat, as 'e's so much bigger'n us'm. We'd be better off leavin' for another ploice!"
This brought on a barrage of shouting and arguments, with most of the mice being unwilling to leave the homes they had lived in for so long. After a bit more shouting and furious arm-waving, Mike mouse managed to restore order.
"Right. So much for that suggestion. Anyone else?"
More dark mutterings and shaking of heads, until another mouse raised his hand.
"Well it's quite obvious. The cat can easily catch us because we don't see the blighter until too late! We need to post scouts to keep a sharp eye out for the blaggard, and warn us when he's about."
Everyone considered this suggestion, for a few moments, and some were even attempting to figure out how many scouts would be needed, when one old mouse, scratching his head in confusion, asked aloud, "But doesn't that mean that the scouts will be out there, not knowing where the bloody cat is at first, an' they'll be the first ones the cat sees?
This caused an immediate chill in the room, and no one seemed inclined to volunteer to be a scout, so after more discussion Mike mouse raised his voice and said, "Welll... there's got to be some blippin' way to keep the furry monster away from us. Any other ideas?"
At this point, one young mouse who had heretofore remained silent raised his hand and said, "It seems to me that the reason the cat can so easily catch us is because we don't know where he is, or when he's coming or going. If we could make it so that whenever he's about, we can hear him coming, we would have time to run and escape from him. He couldn't catch us then, not as long as we knew exactly where he was at all times and could stay away. I think we should tie a bell around the cat's neck!"
This idea was greeted enthusiastically by everyone, and their happiness grew by leaps and bounds as they began to contemplate returning to their comfortable ways, with the cat no longer a threat. They all began gathering around the young mouse, congratulating him on his excellent suggestion and remarking upon what an intelligent young mouse he was. One young girl mouse even threw her arms around him and kissed him, to the delighted laughter of the other mice and the blushing embarrassment of the happy young mouse.
In the middle of all this the older mouse who had spoken previously suddenly raised his voice over the tumult and asked, "Right, then, I've a question about that now. It seems to me that a bell would indeed solve our problem, but what I'd like to know is: which of you lot is going to actually going to put the bell on the cat?"
*Smile*
To successfully resolve a problem requires a specific suggestion, but a suggestion is only as effective as its feasability.
"Encouraging", is it? Well, we shall have to see about providing more of that, no doubt. *smile* As far as being "quite sure" about what the women weren't doing... perhaps I shall refrain from the immediate response that comes to mind; spare your young (inexperienced in that sort of thing) ears, as it were, 'ay? *Laughing*
Yeh, we would all have been better off if the males of that generation had not buckled, I'll be the first to admit that. However, that being said, I make no claims about either side being totally responsible, only that we need to realize the folly thereof and figure out some method to come together and decide how best to resolve the mess, such as actually getting together and formulating some concrete actions.
I never stated that there have not been historical instances in which females have been mistreated, but that holds true for any and all catagories you can name, as well as men.
You are no doubt unaware of this, but I have spent some time in the military. In a 'situation' where a fellow serviceman is in peril, we will do anything possible to resolve the situation and get him back safely -and alive. If it is in a situation where a female is involved, all the male's efforts become pronouncedly more frantic and intense; we instinctively fall into our 'protector' mode, and all know we have to rescue her. It happens every time, without fail, and in all circumstances. It is how we are wired; no one had to instruct us to act in that manner. Indeed, I have seen some instructors become quite upset over the methods initiated to rescue a female in danger.
Now, change the individual involved into a child, and you see some quite, quite stupid chances taken -repeatedly. We all know: we must get the child out of danger! No question.
That is a very enlightened position to hold, and I am greatly encouraged by your attitide. Although I hope that you are not attempting to suggest that I, Myself, am of the opinion that women are solely to blame. Far from it.
I have stated, repeatedly, that since women are so confused about why men are so reluctant to marry I felt the need to point out the reasons why a marriage is such a risk to all we males hold dear. The odds are almost exclusively arranged to destroy a man's life at any time and no reason at all, other than that the woman decides that the necessary expenditure of time and energy for the continuation of the relationship is something she no longer feels a need for and is 'holding her back'. Are they alone responsible for the discontinuation and diminishment of marriages thereby? In a word: yes. What they are not solely responsible for is the prevalence of societal acceptance of their actions and the availability of governmental forces to enforce and encourage the same. If you wish to argue that both genders are responsible because it was the males that helped to bring about the situations, I would point out that the availability of an option does not necessitate its utilization. The possession of a firearm does not mandate a resulting homicidal action.
This is not 'women-bashing', as those of a particularly emasculatory mindset continue to accuse. It is not a derogatory position to posess, to understand that the chances that exist for the destruction of a man's life in the dissolution of a marriage are so great that given the choice, the vast majority of us would not play the lottery with those odds. That being said... most of us males still hope to someday meet the one exception that will enable us to attain that elusive goal of the successful marriage. Call Me a romantic at heart, but that is what I hear from most other males, and what I truly believe.
I am greatly saddened to hear of your disagreement. Nonetheless, being the participant of many confidances over the years (not to mention the recipient of many a greatly-intoxicated mate's reflections upon the matter) and discussions with many individuals of various lifestyles over the decades, I know that this opinion is correct. I have no reason to respond falsely to you, and I tell you that as the Good Lord is My witness, I am being quite straightforward in matters. There was a time, when this was absolutely true, and some still indeed believe in this manner. Women as well. Perhaps it might be helpful to mention that when someone is in pain, they tend to lash out in pain. During the dissolution of a relationship, where one of the participants is incredulous about it and fighting unbelief that the one they care for so much is telling them that the feelings are not returned -indeed, 'uncaring' is the painful summation... they tend to take actions and make comments that are deliberately designed to hurt. We are all, I think, guilty of such actions at one time or another. That does not mean you should give up on all others, especially one as young as you. You do not yet have the experiences in your past necessary to hold such an opinion, and have yet to meet some of the real treasures that are out there.
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