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To: jennyp; Alamo-Girl; PatrickHenry; Phaedrus; beckett; VadeRetro; cornelis
Clearly, in every sense, this is a war of religion, whether it's declared as such or not. And if it isn't, then it certainly should be. Not a war of one religion against another, but of reason against religion--against any belief system that takes its mandate from an invisible spiritual entity and endows its followers with the right to murder or subjugate anyone who fails to come to the same conclusion.

jennyp, fundie Islam clearly isn't "reasonable." That doesn't mean that all religions are "unreasonable" -- this author paints with far too broad a brush. Arguably, Christianity is eminently reasonable, historically fostering learning, building the first great universities in Europe (and also in America -- e.g., Harvard, Princeton, inter alia had foundings in various Christian denominations); maintaining vast libraries of the great classics of antiquity that, were it not for the Church's preservation, may well have perished.

Not to mention Christianity provides the intellectual and moral basis of the freest society on earth -- the United States of America -- and has done so from the very beginning of our Constitutional system.

Moreover, Christianity insists on the sacred, inviolable dignity of each and every individual human person without exception -- recognizing that man is, as far as he can be, in the image of God precisely because he is the bearer of reason and free will.

I agree with this article, that we are embroiled in a religious war, clearly one that we didn't seek. We are a tolerant, secular people.

But this is a war, not of religion vs. reason, but of a grotesquely savage deformation of a world religion -- Islam -- seeking to destroy any other religion that does not conform to its 7th-century idea of society and the universe. Its specific targets are clear -- they are precisely Judaism and Christianity, wherever they are to be found.

That is, it is precisely "a war of one religion against another" (others).

9 posted on 10/25/2002 7:11:38 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Arguably, Christianity is eminently reasonable, historically fostering learning, building the first great universities in Europe (and also in America -- e.g., Harvard, Princeton, inter alia had foundings in various Christian denominations); maintaining vast libraries of the great classics of antiquity that, were it not for the Church's preservation, may well have perished.

Yes, BB. But at times people get carried away, and wrongly use their religion as a justification for doing unreasonable things. Religion must always be tempered with reason, wouldn't you agree?

12 posted on 10/25/2002 7:23:14 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: betty boop
That doesn't mean that all religions are "unreasonable" -- this author paints with far too broad a brush. Arguably, Christianity is eminently reasonable, historically fostering learning, building the first great universities in Europe (and also in America -- e.g., Harvard, Princeton, inter alia had foundings in various Christian denominations); maintaining vast libraries of the great classics of antiquity that, were it not for the Church's preservation, may well have perished.

Indeed. Much of the evolution - sorry about the term ;) - of RC doctrine, from Aquinas forward, has been an attempt to reconcile reason with faith. I happen to think that those attempts have not been entirely successful, but not because reason and faith are incompatible. When done properly, reason and faith should never be incompatible - they are instead orthogonal to one another.

And therein lies the conflict, really - troubles arise when there are those who insist that their brand of faith is incompatible with reason, and must therefore dominate and subjugate reason. And, to insure that this door swings both ways, troubles can arise equally well when there are those who insist their brand of reason is incompatible with faith, and must therefore dominate and subjugate faith. I am quite sure we could think of all sorts of candidates to fill both those categories, if we were to sit down and brainstorm for a bit ;)

So for me, that's the bottom line - faith and reason don't have to be incompatible at all, and I tend to get a bit peevish when I see people who appear to be going out of their way to intentionally set them at odds with one another...

17 posted on 10/25/2002 7:44:58 AM PDT by general_re
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To: betty boop
...this author paints with far too broad a brush.

And more than that, the author sets up false opposites with the implication that reason can stand as equal to religion in terms of its depth, meaning and impact on our lives. Nothing could be further from the truth. Reason is a limited human tool that can deal only with what it is given. Science as well is limited insofar as it is a disciplined mode of exploration that attempts to deal with and understand what is given and what it discovers. Religion, on the other hand, goes far deeper into the source of things and, perhaps because it does, it can evoke passions that may blind believers to the importance of moral means, not ends alone. Well, I'm "preaching to the choir" here, I know. Just wanted to expand on your post.

I'm not buying what the author is selling.

175 posted on 10/27/2002 5:25:17 PM PST by Phaedrus
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To: betty boop
Not to mention Christianity provides the intellectual and moral basis of the freest society on earth -- the United States of America -- and has done so from the very beginning of our Constitutional system.

Unfortunately this is becoming less and less true. The liberals are trying the best they can to excise the Judeo-Chrisitan God from every law, every building, every institution, and quite possibly from every beating heart. Deeper Christian persecution is coming to this country....

278 posted on 10/29/2002 12:20:07 PM PST by Rockitz
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To: betty boop
Moreover, Christianity insists on the sacred, inviolable dignity of each and every individual human person without exception -- recognizing that man is, as far as he can be, in the image of God precisely because he is the bearer of reason and free will.

Exactly. Which is where extremists such as those who murder in the name of pro-life rights go horribly wrong, and where certain fundamentalist cults (e.g. Bill Gothard) go astray. God said, Vengeance is mine. A person answers to Him, not to his human peers. And herein lies the overwhelming vacuum in the Islamic "religion"-- the denial of the individual's relationship and responsibilities to his God, and the power of a self-appointed mortal regime over the individual...

1,216 posted on 12/01/2002 1:57:05 PM PST by maxwell
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