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Is it time to cry wolf? (Wolves in Vermont?)
St Albans (VT) Messenger ^ | Friday, November 15 | LEON THOMPSON

Posted on 11/16/2002 5:20:31 AM PST by Straight Vermonter

SWANTON ­­ Tim Kougias has a mystery on his hands, and he knows it may remain unsolved, but it has added a touch of excitement to his life nonetheless.

On Tuesday, the Swanton resident and his wife, Maria, had just returned from a lengthy trip to Greece, Tim's homeland. As they settled back into their Country Club Estates home, Tim set his video camera on the kitchen counter.

"What is that?" Maria asked suddenly, pointing to the edge of their backyard, which straddles a wooded area.

Roaming along that border was a dog, or so Tim thought, until he noticed it was abnormally large, gray with a rusty tint and collar-less.

"It was big and huge," he recalled yesterday. "I knew it wasn't a dog, and I knew it wasn't a fox."

So Tim shot it.

With his video camera.

Tim's short footage is a bit shaky, but the animal can be seen clearly. As Tim's camera zooms in on the creature, it looks amazingly like a wolf.

Or a large coyote.

Or a wolf.

Or a large coyote.

"I don't know which one it is," Tim said.

When Tim's friend Joe Desrochers, of Swanton, saw the enigmatic footage, he told Kougias about the small pack of wolves experts say live in the Quebec wilderness, about 20 miles from the U.S. border on the south side of the St. Lawrence River.

Desrochers knew experts had predicted those wolves or their offspring will find their way to northern New England forests.

European settlers worked for centuries to eliminate wolves from the Northeastern U.S. and succeeded about a century ago. There has been debate about whether wolves should be reintroduced to the region, but the recent developments in Quebec could stop that argument.

Now another question remains: Did Tim Kougias photograph a wolf?

"When I saw Tim's film and remembered what I heard about in Quebec, I thought, 'This is weird timing,'" Desrochers said. "It looks like a wolf to me, but I'm no expert."

Residents from northeastern sections of the county, where coyotes are rampant, said yesterday they thought the animal looked like the coyotes they see roaming near their homes. Kougias and Desrochers hope to show the footage to a wildlife expert for a more educated guess.

In any event, the Kougiases have captured a gorgeous wild animal in a sliver of time.

--- --- ---

Contact Leon Thompson at 524-9771, ext. 112, or leon@samessenger.com


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Vermont
KEYWORDS: animalrights; ar; esa; sss; wolfattack; wolfattacks; wolfpacks; wolves; wolvesattack
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I am of 2 minds about having wolves here. I know the farmers don't want them but as a backpacker I would kind of like the romance that wolves add to an evening in the mountains. Aaaaaaoooooooooooooooooo!
1 posted on 11/16/2002 5:20:31 AM PST by Straight Vermonter
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To: Straight Vermonter
I think we want the wolves. The deer population would certainly benefit from their presence.
2 posted on 11/16/2002 5:28:55 AM PST by The Other Harry
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To: The Other Harry
I would rather have a 30.06 than a wolf for deer control.
3 posted on 11/16/2002 5:38:55 AM PST by Dick Vomer
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To: Straight Vermonter
Amazingly, the wolves have re-appeared in the part of Illinois that I live in. I used to hear them frequently, occasionally see them about 10 years ago, then they stopped.

Back in August, I was awakened to the howling of a few wolves around midnight - 1am. The windows were open in the bedroom and they didn't sound too far off.

I live in Will County, in a somewhat still rural area of the county. Frankly, I welcome the wolves back. The deer population here has EXPLODED and something needs to trim the deer herd back since the damn' state won't let us shoot them.

4 posted on 11/16/2002 5:46:25 AM PST by usconservative
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To: RosieCotton
So, Rosie, do you hear these things at night? Pretty interesting, I wonder what danger they could pose.
5 posted on 11/16/2002 6:04:20 AM PST by Sam Cree
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To: Straight Vermonter
I wouldn't mind having a couple in my neighborhood.

It might solve the the problem of cats allowed to wander around crapping in my garden and elswhere.

6 posted on 11/16/2002 6:07:24 AM PST by JimVT
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To: Straight Vermonter
Wolves in Vermont?

Saw the headline, and thought the thread would be about Leaky Leahy or Jumpin' Jeffords.

If it were about them, I'd say keep them in Vermont - don't send them to Washington to plaque the rest of us.

7 posted on 11/16/2002 6:15:52 AM PST by KeyBored
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To: Straight Vermonter
. . . as a backpacker I would kind of like the romance that wolves add to an evening in the mountains.

The wolves won't be such wonderful company for you if their numbers go up. Backpackers will become endangered, as opposed to wolves. The romance of it goes away quick.

8 posted on 11/16/2002 6:24:32 AM PST by toddst
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To: toddst
The wolves won't be such wonderful company for you if their numbers go up. Backpackers will become endangered, as opposed to wolves. The romance of it goes away quick.

Unless they have rabies, wolves are not dangerous. You have watched one too many disney movies.
9 posted on 11/16/2002 6:36:48 AM PST by BillCompton
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To: BillCompton
There are signs on the ski lifts at Killington that say: "These woods are as dark and lonely as they were two hundred years ago--don't ski off the marked trails!"
10 posted on 11/16/2002 6:42:54 AM PST by Betteboop
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To: BillCompton
I had one for a pet once. He was the sweetest thing imaginable, except for his unbreakable urge to eat my chickens. The reaction he got from dogs we met in the park was remarkable. They would turn inside out when they smelled him. I was training security and guide dogs at the time. He could do either superbly.

Definitely NOT for amateurs, however. You could train him to do anything but could never intimidate him. You definitely couldn't spank him except while he was a puppy.

I still miss him.
11 posted on 11/16/2002 6:59:55 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: Straight Vermonter
Perhaps they're just dropping to form civil unions?
12 posted on 11/16/2002 7:06:59 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets
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To: BillCompton
Unless they have rabies, wolves are not dangerous. You have watched one too many disney movies.

I disagree. Back up your assertion, please. As a varmiter I can tell you that feral dog packs are very dangerous to people. This is well documented throughout the south by surveyers and others working the timber stands. And you are going to tell me that wolf packs are not a threat to humans? I want to see some evidence.

13 posted on 11/16/2002 7:18:02 AM PST by toddst
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To: BillCompton
Unless they have rabies, wolves are not dangerous. You have watched one too many disney movies.

Shall I assume you are not a farmer or rancher?
14 posted on 11/16/2002 7:22:29 AM PST by sasquatch
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To: usconservative
I live in Will County, in a somewhat still rural area of the county. Frankly, I welcome the wolves back. The deer population here has EXPLODED and something needs to trim the deer herd back since the damn' state won't let us shoot them.

See #14 and consider this: What are you going to do when the wolf population is out of control? Shoot them?
15 posted on 11/16/2002 7:58:13 AM PST by sasquatch
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To: sasquatch
Two or three years ago when they released wolves on the NM AZ border a newly retired AZ man shot one of the wolves that was running toward him to attack in his rv camp with other family members. Poor guy thought he was going to spend his retirement in prison! I a can guarentee you that with the liberal politics in goverment that if there was ANY question that his version was not accurate he would be in prison right now!

I personally met some guys in NM that watched Game Commission guys shoot cow elk in the hip so the wolves would pick up the blood trail and "get their kill" on a wounded elk. The Game Commission denied it of course.

I had a enviromental biologist friend who about 5 years ago met a group of biology grad students from U of A in the field on Gray's Ranch. (The Gray Ranch is essentially the boothill of NM and is owned by the Nature Conservancy.) He asked them how many Mexican gray wolves they had counted. Answer: none. He informed that he personally had seen 4 different wolves on the Ranch. They were developing a managment plan without even doing a real inventory of what was there! Yes, I'm talking about real native Mexican gray wolves, not those dog mixed half baked domestics that the Game Commission is releasing!

The animal in the article may have been a coyote-dog mix. Also in NM, about 5 years ago, we picked up a dog from the pound for my youngest son...looked like a nice little shepard mix. Maggie turned out to be a coyote mix! Damn thing run down to the neighbors house and killed a chicken every time you loosed it!
16 posted on 11/16/2002 8:11:45 AM PST by armourup
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To: JimVT
Coyotes are the best check on cat populations. Where I live we have a huge abundance of birds because there are NO feral cats. Coyotes will perform magic acts to steal a cat.
17 posted on 11/16/2002 8:35:00 AM PST by Righty1
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To: The Other Harry
The deer population would certainly benefit from their presence.

From the reports I've read, everywhere wolves have been introduced, the deer population has plummeted.

Actually, I think the re-introduction has a motive other than 'natural, native species'.
If deer and elk become scarce then hunting can be stopped. The liberals can argue there is no need for firearms at all. ( Some liberals grudgingly give us hunting as a reason to own certain types of firearms.)

18 posted on 11/16/2002 8:35:03 AM PST by Vinnie
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To: Righty1
Well, according to the info below maybe I should be looking to import some coyotes into the neighborhood.

Coyotes were found only in the Great Plains and western areas until relatively recently. The existence of coyotes in Vermont was first documented in 1948; they apparently moved into our area from New York(1) and southern Quebec as they migrated eastward from the upper Midwest.

(1)Along with the Sanders Socialists.

19 posted on 11/16/2002 8:43:35 AM PST by JimVT
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To: armourup
Sounds like you live in SW NM. I lived near Pinos Altos from '98 - '00. Loved it there.

Another thing that wolf releases in AZ/NM have proved is that wolves will take livestock before wild game like deer and elk. Once they learn (and it doesn't take long) that domestic critters are easier than wild ones that will be their preference. They aren't stupid.

20 posted on 11/16/2002 8:45:55 AM PST by TigersEye
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To: Dick Vomer
What rifle do you use for .30/06?I'm kind of old fashioned,I like .45/70.Iroll my own"and use a model 1886 as my delivery system.
21 posted on 11/16/2002 8:49:04 AM PST by bandleader
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To: BillCompton
Wolves are dangerous. They are wild animals.
Most of the time they will not approach a human, but a small child alone in the woods and a hungry wolf pack could be a bad combination.

I like wolves. They are a lot more honorable than a lot of humans,, but if I'm alone in the woods where wolves are present, I will have a gun. Just in case.
22 posted on 11/16/2002 9:06:31 AM PST by philetus
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To: Straight Vermonter
hello

about 3 or 4 years ago i saw a wolf several times in
a marsh at lighthouse point park here in new haven ct.
in fact we watched one morning as it hunted and got a
shorebird.

we also have tons of coyotes here in ct, i mean tons.

bear and mountain lion have been seen in ct.

so much for vanishing species.
23 posted on 11/16/2002 9:56:24 AM PST by jart
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To: bandleader
I like the 30.06 ..... cause I've always hunted with it... nice little Remington, Leopold site and muzzle brake. sweet!
24 posted on 11/16/2002 10:09:41 AM PST by Dick Vomer
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To: jart
Mountain Lion or Lynx? I've read rumors of the Eastern cougar for years, and had a future wildlife major friend at Penn State who thought one stalked him back in '69 in the area.

The only confirmed sighting I've heard of was Delaware County, PA and that one escaped or was let loose. Wreaked some havok, and I don't know the outcome.

The last good article I read debunked all cougar sightings from TN North.

25 posted on 11/16/2002 11:18:56 AM PST by ReaganIsRight
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To: The Other Harry
I think we want the wolves. The deer population would certainly benefit from their presence.

I was just thinking that. I here that in a few years, that we will have mountain lions as far east as New Jersey/Upstate New York. All the better to control the "rats with antlers."

26 posted on 11/16/2002 12:20:15 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: Vinnie
From the reports I've read, everywhere wolves have been introduced, the deer population has plummeted.

This is what needs to happen. I recently read in a different thread that the deer population in CT has tripled in the past five years. Nationwide, deer are responsible for more deaths than sharks, bears, rattlesnakes, and alligators combined.

Actually, I think the re-introduction has a motive other than 'natural, native species'.

If deer and elk become scarce then hunting can be stopped. The liberals can argue there is no need for firearms at all. ( Some liberals grudgingly give us hunting as a reason to own certain types of firearms.)

I don't know about elk, but deer are hardly scarce these days. There aren't enough hunters to control their burgeoning numbers.

27 posted on 11/16/2002 12:57:36 PM PST by The Other Harry
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To: The Other Harry
I don't know about elk, but deer are hardly scarce these days. There aren't enough hunters to control their burgeoning numbers.

If that's the case the hunting season needs to be extended and quotas per hunter raised. Generally there are plenty of hunters interested in taking deer, but they follow the law.

Overpopulation can be dealt with through adjusted hunting regulations (where pro-hunting officials are running the program.) Wolves we don't need for this purpose.

28 posted on 11/16/2002 2:37:26 PM PST by toddst
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To: Straight Vermonter
The wolf population in northern MN has exploded to over 3000. When the Interior department recommended de-listing the wolf from the list of endangered species in MN, the environmentalists had a conniption fit.

A bill to allow hunting of wolves was also turned back by the environmentalists, most of whom live in the Twin Cities and have never seen a wolf. It is illegal to shoot a wolf unless in the actual process of attacking livestock. The number of sheep in farms in northern MN has dropped 54%, and there is no longer open grazing for most cattle during most of the year.

Just a taste of what you ranchers in Vermont can look forward to.

29 posted on 11/16/2002 4:20:48 PM PST by Gideon7
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To: Righty1
Coyotes will perform magic acts to steal a cat

And to think I used to hate coyotes. What this world needs is a few more of them.

30 posted on 11/16/2002 4:24:48 PM PST by Archie Bunker on steroids
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To: ReaganIsRight
The last good article I read debunked all cougar sightings from TN North.

We had a cougar sighting here confirmed through DNA from scat found at the spot of the sighting. State biologists thought it was either a runaway domestic animal (who the hell keeps cougars?) or an animal that was just "passing through" the area.

31 posted on 11/16/2002 5:23:00 PM PST by Straight Vermonter
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To: toddst
I disagree. Back up your assertion, please. As a varmiter I can tell you that feral dog packs are very dangerous to people. This is well documented throughout the south by surveyers and others working the timber stands. And you are going to tell me that wolf packs are not a threat to humans? I want to see some evidence.

I tried to google it, but was unsuccessful in a brief attempt. This is what I remember: Isaak Asimov (sp?) used to publish books on scientific facts. One I remember is almost verbatim: There has never been a documented case of a non-rabid wolf killing a human.

In the 25 years since I read that, I would have definately remembered a news account or other account of a real wolf killing (other than the fantasy Beauty and the Beast variety). True, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but at least it is not well-known that they are human-killers. On the other hand, I have heard of numerous bear and mountain lion fatal attack stories.
32 posted on 11/17/2002 3:55:21 AM PST by BillCompton
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To: sasquatch
Unless they have rabies, wolves are not dangerous. You have watched one too many disney movies.

>Shall I assume you are not a farmer or rancher?

That is certainly a different matter. The post I referred to concerned: "Backpackers" who "will become endangered."

Wolves are hell on livestock, but there is a common misconception that they are, in packs, human killers. They are not.
33 posted on 11/17/2002 4:04:24 AM PST by BillCompton
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To: Betteboop
It's been years since I went skiing on Killington. Isn't Pico Peaks part of it now (yes, that long.)? How much is a lift ticket these days? At any rate, I've long since decided the only snow and ice I wanted to see should be in the freezer on or the weather channel, but I do miss skiing.
34 posted on 11/17/2002 4:10:22 AM PST by Caipirabob
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To: usconservative
I've read accounts of Cougars seen out in Will and DeKalb counties. Any truth to that?
35 posted on 11/17/2002 4:16:32 AM PST by Wrigley
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To: BillCompton
Wolves are opportunists and pack hunters. They will eat what it is easy to get. An unarmed backpacker alone is easy for a pack to get.

I like wolves just fine; there are lots of wild animals in my area, including bears, panthers, coyotes, deer, beavers, groundhogs, armadillos, you name it, it's here...my neighbor videotaped a bear eating Golden Grain out of a sack in a shed, other neighbors who raise cattle saw, in daylight, a pair of panthers kill a calving cow...

But liking the wildlife, and living by choice among all of them, does not mean that any of them are to be trusted around humans, especially wolves in packs.
36 posted on 11/17/2002 4:21:23 AM PST by Judith Anne
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To: Judith Anne
Wolves are opportunists and pack hunters. They will eat what it is easy to get. An unarmed backpacker alone is easy for a pack to get.

I am no authority in the subject for sure, but have you ever heard of wolves (non-rabid) _ever_ killing a human? My information is that there is not a single documented case of it happening.

P.S. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
37 posted on 11/17/2002 5:28:57 AM PST by BillCompton
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To: BillCompton
I tried to google it, but was unsuccessful in a brief attempt. This is what I remember: Isaak Asimov (sp?) used to publish books on scientific facts. One I remember is almost verbatim: There has never been a documented case of a non-rabid wolf killing a human.

I appreciate your effort to back up your statement with documentation. I am going to search this also.

I have hunted feral dog packs for years, at the invitation of farmers who experience losses from predation of their sheep and cattle herds. The dog packs are exceptionally dangerous and can only be fired on from a respectable distance, with the capacity to fire on multiple targets fairly rapidly. The problem is well known in agricultural communities.

Wolves are another matter altogether. I have never hunted wolves so have no direct experience with them. However, I have spent time in Northern Greece and villagers there will quickly relate their experiences in dealing with wolves during winter. Many farmers and herders are constantly armed with shotguns specifically to deal with both feral dogs and wolves.

I would like to find some documented cases of wolf attacks in North America, will search my sources. Based on my direct experiences with feral dog packs I would want nothing whatever to do with a wolf pack in the wild, especially in winter.

I believe the dangers created through re-introduction of wolves in the US is being suppressed by advocates of such practices.

38 posted on 11/17/2002 5:35:53 AM PST by toddst
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To: Yakboy
It's been years for me too (too big and too crowded) but they are one--not yet connected--but you can share a ticket, I believe.
I haven't yet given up on cold and snow---ice I can do without, except in a drink!
39 posted on 11/17/2002 6:25:56 AM PST by Betteboop
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To: Wrigley
I haven't seen any, and I did't know they were indigenous to the area. I always thought Cougars were more West/Southweset states?
40 posted on 11/17/2002 7:11:30 AM PST by usconservative
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To: usconservative
I read reports around the Fox River in Kane County and surrounding areas.

Think about how the minor league baseball team got its name.
41 posted on 11/17/2002 8:06:22 AM PST by Wrigley
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To: Straight Vermonter
Sounds like the same deal in Delaware County, PA. Domestic pet on the loose. I don't know the final outcome, but the one there had a pretty good range before it was over? You let enough pets like this loose and you can't let the kids out in the woods without a gun. Kinda sorta like we found this country.
42 posted on 11/17/2002 12:11:58 PM PST by ReaganIsRight
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To: BillCompton
I found several sites about wolves attacking humans in North America, on google. The first few reports are from the past, but keep reading, there are more current ones. According to the writer of the report, the attack must be by a wolf that was never around humans, must result in the death of the human who was attacked, and the wolf must be killed, tested for rabies, and found to be non-rabid before they will consider it an "attack on a human."

Nevertheless, there are some.

Here ya go--cut and paste that into your browser..

http://www.natureswolves.com/human/aws_wolfattacks.htm

43 posted on 11/17/2002 3:08:03 PM PST by Judith Anne
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To: BillCompton; Straight Vermonter; usconservative; Clemenza
Unless they have rabies, wolves are not dangerous. You have watched one too many disney movies.

They're extrememly dangerous, to America that is.

Enviros put these carnivores where they don't belong and then go about the process of bullying the surrounding communities off their property in order to give these animals "territory". All because suburban pipe-dreaming idiots and "backbackers" get all warm and fuzzy and decide to play God. Meanwhile the elitists among us are using them as a tool to further their agenda.

Most re-intoduced wolves aren't even the natural species. They're hybrids that lose their fear of humans during the "re-introduction" and other interaction.

They and other unatural predators (like the cross-bred inbred "Florida Panthers) are some of the most dangerous creatures on earth. I know this first hand.

My suggestion is if you see one these creatures anywhere near where you live, rid your area of them by any means necessary. Or suffer the consequences.

44 posted on 11/17/2002 3:31:50 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
They and other unatural predators (like the cross-bred inbred "Florida Panthers) are some of the most dangerous creatures on earth. I know this first hand.

Those inbred Florida Panthers are doing a good job of killing themselves, whether through fighting or by getting hit by cars on the Tamiami Trail or Alligator Alley.

In all honesty, the most dangerous animal in Florida is the "endangered" American Crocodile. Currently, the tend to hang around the southern part (Flamingo) of Everglades National Park. I only hope that they don't reproduce enough to start moving elsewhere along the coast.

45 posted on 11/17/2002 4:39:16 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: Clemenza
I only hope that they don't reproduce enough to start moving elsewhere along the coast.

They won't. They have to have the consistant climate in the south and they (unlike gators) thrive in salt water. Salt water turns a gators brains into mush after a while.

Leave the gun, take the Canoles.

46 posted on 11/17/2002 5:13:24 PM PST by AAABEST
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To: JimVT
What I don't understand is why the coyotes in the east are so damned large? The ones we saw this summer in the UP of Mi are almost twice as big as our backyard "pets" in NV.
47 posted on 11/17/2002 5:38:00 PM PST by Righty1
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To: Righty1
Hybrids, with local dogs imho.
48 posted on 11/17/2002 6:09:17 PM PST by Judith Anne
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To: BillCompton
Yes. There was a series in Field & Stream (I think, but it could have been Sports Afield). It was by Olive Fredeckson (I think) in the mid-60's one was titled "The Wolves were the Worst". She lived alone in the woods of Canada and did a lot of hunting and trapping. Good series.

I just wrote Field & Stream asking for a compilation of Corey Ford's Lower Forty. They could probably put every issue of the magazine ever printed on a CD.

49 posted on 11/18/2002 11:39:25 AM PST by ReaganIsRight
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To: Judith Anne
Makes sense, especially given the fact that small dogs are summarily eaten.
50 posted on 11/18/2002 5:04:52 PM PST by Righty1
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