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Old And In The Way (Decline and Fall of Europe)
American Enterprise Magazine ^ | December 2002 | Karl Zinsmeister

Posted on 12/04/2002 1:37:10 AM PST by tictoc

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To: pepsionice
I just saw a report from the dpa that Merkel has said the US would fail if they tried to run Iraq without the UN. Evidently she took too much of a hit in the polls with he US stance.

I agree with what you say. The US and Germany are no longer allies.

longjack

51 posted on 04/06/2003 10:18:43 AM PDT by longjack
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To: longjack
Ok, pack your things and go.
52 posted on 04/06/2003 10:25:49 AM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: pepsionice
You´re kidding.
1. The German parliament will not call the US troops to leave unless America declares war on my nation.

2. I agree, in 2006 we will have a restart: (lately) in that year, the German parliament will vote a new Chancellor. A Chancellor who is member of a party that stood always at Americas side.

3. How do you define riots? people demontrating against the economy policy? That´s what we had already.
Riots in the sense of violant, aggressive demonstrations? No. That won´t happen.
53 posted on 04/06/2003 10:30:44 AM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: longjack
How can YOU say that? You should know better.
54 posted on 04/06/2003 10:31:13 AM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: Brian Allen
I heard the following joke attributed to Bono (meaning even a commie can see what's up here).

An American and an Irishman are walking down a road together and they come upon a huge, beautiful house.

The American says "Someday I'm going to own this house!"

The Irishman says "Someday I'm going to get the bastard who lives in this house."

That is the difference between Americans and Europeans. It says it all, IMHO.

55 posted on 04/06/2003 10:39:30 AM PDT by Anamensis (Regime change began at home in 2000.)
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To: Michael81Dus
I consider Germany as I do France and Russia. I don't think they are allies.

longjack

56 posted on 04/06/2003 10:45:10 AM PDT by longjack
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To: Erasmus
Russia is going to be just as badly off as the rest.

As for Muslim immigration, the Euros are bigots. There's a good a chance that they'll slam the doors on it, maybe even expel some of their "guests."

What worries me that the author didn't mention is that there are three nuclear nations in Europe. Of course that will come to mean less as time goes on.

57 posted on 04/06/2003 10:56:34 AM PDT by edsheppa
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To: Anamensis
LOL
58 posted on 04/06/2003 11:43:40 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Anamensis; knighthawk
<< I heard the following joke attributed to Bono. [Meaning even a commie can see what's up here]

An American and an Irishman are walking down a road together and they come upon a huge, beautiful house.

The American says "Someday I'm going to own this house!"

The Irishman says "Someday I'm going to get the bastard who lives in this house."

That is the difference between Americans and Europeans. It says it all, IMHO. >>

Scary, eh?

But no need to go so far and find an Irishman? Start with a Canadian and a Mexican. That's my experience of the difference between an American and the rest of the world.

Please God we begin to appreciate that simple fact.

Though not to care.

Best ones -- Brian
59 posted on 04/06/2003 11:57:31 AM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Brian Allen
Don't even get me started on Canadians. I had a Canadian roommate once. He's buried in the backyard now.

Well, if I had my way he would be.

60 posted on 04/06/2003 12:04:35 PM PDT by Anamensis (Regime change began at home in 2000.)
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To: Anamensis
They sure hate US, eh?

Those mean-spirited folks who show the world it's possible to get by without a country.

Especially the ones huddled along our border.

That 99.5% of them.

And then there are their mentors, the lip curled supercilious devious and duplicitous Limeys!

Shudder .........
61 posted on 04/06/2003 12:12:19 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: tictoc
Many French are so deluded, it isn't funny. In their minds, the counterweight to U.S. power will be French brains, German engineering, Arab manpower, and Gulf oil money. To them, this notion is entirely sane.

The same problems europe is having, America is having to a lesser degree. Americans right here at FR constantly use the same reasoning as above to defend it all. American brains and engineering can supposedly excuse the sellout of our manufacturing. Well they've retreated from engineering and now simply extol the virtues of "innovation", brains.

"Political elites feel that the people have no right to obstruct the realization of the European dream."

And in America the elites call it globalism, new world order, etc., but we cant even defend our own borders anymore.

62 posted on 04/06/2003 12:39:47 PM PDT by PuNcH
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To: American in Israel
Excellent article.

I agree that Islam ismoving into this vacuum. Soon France will be a Muslim country. As the problems the author notes begin more and more to manifest, Islamafascism will seep in.
63 posted on 04/06/2003 8:25:36 PM PDT by fightinJAG
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To: pepsionice
One of the fascinating things about the German moral argument about the war...less than 5 percent of German population go to church on a regular basis. While 50 percent may go around Easter or Christmas...the bulk of society simply pay their state-required church tax and never say a word (if you don't pay, you can't get married in the church or have a church funeral...so they all pay for nothing).

Very good point. Europe has become secularized at an incredible rate. The single most important question a country can answer is what it thinks about God - every other answer flows from that. More than anything else, that is the difference between Europe and America - we still retain something of our Christian heritage.

64 posted on 04/06/2003 8:38:47 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: longjack
Will you tell me why? You should know better how Germany proves solidarity and it fulfils its obligations to the alliance - more than the non-military NATO-member France or the non-NATO-member Russia does!!

BTW, I have contacted Prof. Pommerin. I couldn´t believe what I have read.
He told me that these reproaches ARE NOT TRUE and that he reserves his right to sue the claimers.
65 posted on 04/07/2003 7:53:14 AM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: tictoc; knighthawk
Brilliant article.

This echos my sentiments about the sinister reality of Eurosocialism, but it makes the point so well, particuarly the part saying to the effect that since 1970 there's been 55 million new jobs in the US but 5 in Europe that are undestandably mostly government? Holy Cow is that amazing!

This would leave me feeling sorry for Europe, if I didn't suspect they bitterly wanted me to lose my job and be dependant on the State. Spread the word.

66 posted on 04/07/2003 10:13:51 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA ("As long as it takes...No. That's the answer to your question. As long as it takes." GWB)
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To: Michael81Dus
BTW, I have contacted Prof. Pommerin. I couldn´t believe what I have read.
He told me that these reproaches ARE NOT TRUE and that he reserves his right to sue the claimers.

Throughout the two days, Pommerin set the tone with an aggressively antagonistic attitude toward all things American. "Thank God we had the 11th of September," he declared--for this showed the U.S. how it feels to be humbled. Herr professor-colonel went on to suggest that Americans often feel nostalgic for the "good old days of slavery in the nineteenth century." He told ludicrous stories about seeing empty bottles and litter piled "one meter deep" along roadsides in America, illustrating our environmental slovenliness. He insisted the seemingly mighty U.S. military was now a hollow force, all flash and no substance.
Invite him to come on FreeRepublic and respond to the above quotes attributed to him. He deserves a fair hearing. I promise that if he does, I will send an e-mail to Mr. Zinsmeister at the American Enterprise magazine. However, in all likelihood Zinsmeister will not be able to respond quickly as he is currently embedded in Iraq with the 82nd Airborne Division.
67 posted on 04/07/2003 10:29:02 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: tictoc
Bump to read later.
68 posted on 04/07/2003 10:36:19 AM PDT by LiberationIT
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To: All
Zinsmeister's article is rather pessimistic for the future of European-American relations.

For a still-critical, but less harsh, view please read Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus by Robert Kagan. It seems that Kagan is more hopeful than Zinsmeister for the future, and more willing to make allowances for European differences of opinion.

However, average readers of Der Spiegel or Le Monde are so deeply indoctrinated with resentment of American policy, it is unlikely that they will be able to recognize Kagan for what he is: a true friend of Europeans, willing to go the extra mile to be understanding and patient.

69 posted on 04/07/2003 10:58:18 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: MadIvan
Ping to you, because you posted the Kagan article (from the London Times) on FreeRepublic.
70 posted on 04/07/2003 11:01:29 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Michael81Dus
Will you tell me why?

I think Schroeder's incompetent and unreliable. I think he's also a tar baby. The German opposition can't unify to oust him. There's no sense in dealing with Germany.

JMO.

longjack

71 posted on 04/07/2003 11:17:39 AM PDT by longjack
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To: tictoc; longjack
That´s what Prof. Pommerin wrote to me:

"Da hätten sie gewiß Recht (You were right), wenn ich als bekannter USA-Freund (if I as a well-known US-friend)(Harvard Fellow und Fulbright-Ehrenprof. an der Vanderbilt University) solche Sprüche gemacht hätte (had said such remarks)! Der frühere Dt. Botschafter bei der NATO (the former German Ambassador to NATO), von Richthoven war ebenfalls anwesend (von Richthofen was also there), solche Äußerungen sind natürlich nicht gemacht worden (of course, such comments were not made). der Veranstalter hat ein entsprechendes Schreiben in die USA gesandt (the organizer has sent a letter to the US). An diesem Beispiel ist mir klar geworden, welche armen Schweine diejenigen sind, deren Ruf in den Medien durch Gerüchte oder angebliche Äußerungen geschädigt werden, un die dies mehr
oder weniger hilflos über sich ergehen lassen müssen (to remain untranslated)! ...
Falls es mehrere Veröffentlichungen gibt, würde ich eventuell Klage erheben."
72 posted on 04/07/2003 12:17:55 PM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: longjack
You´re right, just your opinion. But Jack, I thought you understood why we can´t get rid of Schröder now... the opposition cannot dismiss him, we need THEIR votes, too.
73 posted on 04/07/2003 12:19:27 PM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: tictoc
I posted his response to me, I will not "invite him to come on FR", because that would look like a trial ("fair hearing") and I don´t think that this is adaquate.

I believe Prof. Pommerin, and I can´t explain why such wrong quotes were made...
74 posted on 04/07/2003 12:21:29 PM PDT by Michael81Dus (Hopefully, this night will not be the night of "use of unconventional weapons"....)
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To: Michael81Dus
Okay, so Pommerin categorically denies having made those comments.

You left the last two sentences of his e-mail untranslated. My translation: "This example has made clear to me how miserable ["arme Schweine" -- poor wretches] anyone is whose reputation is harmed in the media by rumors or alleged statements and who has to suffer this abuse more or less helplessly ...
If there are several publications ["mehrere Veröffentlichungen"], I might consider bringing a lawsuit."

It is unclear what he means by "mehrere Veröffentlichungen" -- perhaps he won't sue the American Enterprise Magazine, in which the article appeared, but will sue any media that reprint the comments attributed to him?

In my opinion this is fairly serious. If Pommerin is right, then Zinsmeister made up the statements attributed to Pommerin out of whole cloth -- a serious breach of journalistic ethics. I am not a journalist, but I believe in most reputable media this would constitute a "firing offense".

Conversely, if Pommerin is lying, then he has only dug himself deeper into the hole he is already in.

I will e-mail Mr. Zinsmeister and ask him to respond after he gets back from Iraq.

Regardless, the larger point, as you well know, remains: There are many Germans in high office (Daeubler-Gmelin, for example) or with influence (Drewermann, for example) who do indeed make similarly preposterous claims about the U.S. every day.
75 posted on 04/07/2003 12:57:30 PM PDT by tictoc
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To: tictoc
1. The comment "mehrere Veröffentlichungen" is said because I wrote of "US-Medien" - so he concluded that several media printed the story, I told him where I got it from.

2. Those high-ranking Germans come from the left - Pommerin is a Colonel (Res) and a friend of von Richthofen, I guess he´s on the right side.

3. I have never heard anybody saying that the 9-11 attacks were good, except maybe Nazis or radical Muslims.

When you get response from Zinsmeister, will you inform me, please? Thanks in advance,

Michael
76 posted on 04/07/2003 1:06:16 PM PDT by Michael81Dus (Proud to be German! Proud to stand for this great country!!)
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To: Michael81Dus
After criticism over her pro-American course in the Iraq war CDU boss Angela Merkel said Saturday in Bochum, addressing the USA, "If you think that you can, as the only superpower in this world, regulate everything alone, then you will fail." The party and parliamentary fraction chief Sunday on 'Deutschlandfunk', however, warned, about encountering the USA with distrust in the debate about post-war order. Merkel expressed understanding for critics within the party over her Pro-American course. Because of her position on the Iraq issue she has plummeted in favor with voters.

Bundesregierung und Union warnen USA vor weiteren Alleingängen

"She caved, Jim."

I think the article shows the SPD, Greens and the Union are holding hands in their post-war strategy. "Schroederitis' is catching. Forget about how important "their" votes for ousting him are, and think about "ours". Schroeder has 'risen' to 32% favorability and the CDU is caving.

Again, JMO.

BTW, I was especially "fond" of Beer's remarks: Let the war parties pay for it, but the UN should develop it.

longjack

77 posted on 04/07/2003 1:21:40 PM PDT by longjack
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To: longjack
So what´s wrong with my party´s comments? They are right, and in no way "anti-american". And in a democracy (especially as a politican) you have to show understaning for criticism.

The Iraq war is diverting from domestic problems, and we all knew that the SPD will not stay at the 27% level...
My hope is, that evidence, that Iraq had WDM, will be released to the public very soon. That will give us (war-supporters) a after-war justification to those who never wanted to believe.


78 posted on 04/07/2003 1:40:31 PM PDT by Michael81Dus (Proud to be German! Proud to stand for this great country!!)
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To: Michael81Dus
"Fearless Leader" Merkel sounds like she's bowing to pressure. Sometimes, regardless of public opinion, one must stick to their guns, ala Tony Blair.

Schroeder taps into the latest trend to redefine his image when it means improved "Waehlergunst". Some pages of Schroeder's playbook seem to have stuck on Merkel. As I said I think, he's a tar baby.

"They will fail"; warnings of, "not to meet the US with mistrust" (how about, "we can trust them"?), while not necessarily anti-American, don't evoke oodles of warm-fuzzies in me. She can keep her pep-talk to herself until the war is over AFAIC.

longjack

79 posted on 04/07/2003 2:02:30 PM PDT by longjack
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To: longjack
That´s the problem: They cannot keep their pep-talk to themselves: they are politicians! They are asked every s#it and sometimes they must give an answer. So they tell them "uh, not making faults now, US should be careful, do everything to support and strengthen the UN, blah blah". They´re not like us who we don´t have to express our opinion. Merkel still keeps her pro-war course, but she steps down in criticizing their opponents.
80 posted on 04/07/2003 2:07:17 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Well, I hope she can keep the CDU strong, they don't look cohesive now.

I just saw on dpa that a German journalist was killed. Michael Liebig, editor from 'Focus'. Unfortunate. A Spanish reporter also. From Iraqi rockets. Liebig was embedded with 3 ID, he didn't go on a mission because he thought it was safer in the HQ. Sounds like the rockets hit the HQ.

longjack

81 posted on 04/07/2003 2:22:28 PM PDT by longjack
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To: longjack
I heard of it too and just wrote to FOCUS. The first German to be killed in that war. :-(

It´s war, and that always distracts from domestic failures... of course the CDU doesn´t look cohesive now. But it will improve. I´m faithful.
82 posted on 04/07/2003 2:26:39 PM PDT by Michael81Dus
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