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Christmas Before Christ? The Surprising Story
United Church of God ^ | 12/200 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 12/21/2002 11:21:49 AM PST by DouglasKC

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To: MWS; 2sheep
I would like to apologize about one thing I said in that post. I should not have questioned your Christianity. It was mean spirited and inappropriate and I was a bit caught up in my emotions. However, that said, I stand by my comment that it is wrong for Christians to deny the importance of the incarnation of Christ. It was no excuse for my comment, though, and for that I apologize.
301 posted on 12/27/2002 9:43:58 AM PST by MWS
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To: fso301
I'm pretty sure that steeples were not invented to provide landmarks. That aspect is simply incidental.

Have you ever checked out what the OT "groves" were that Jehova found so despicable?

Have you ever made the connection between groves, fertility worship, and forbidden gods of fertility?

Do you really think that it blesses God that those claiming to be 'His people' refuse to separate themselves from traditions, practices, and symbols that He banned in OT times and has never since blessed?

302 posted on 12/27/2002 11:37:34 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
>It's called begging the question, an informal fallacy. Right on the money.

So the Satanist supports and agrees with the Apostate.  What a team you make!  How right of the Lord to include the Lukewarm with the Cold.

303 posted on 12/27/2002 2:59:49 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: MWS; DouglasKC; ALS; Eagle Eye; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal
>You still have yet to substantiate your claims that Christianity and Christmas was syncretized in a manner that does not rely on post hoc fallacies.  I am not going to bother with this thread until this is done, as I have much more important things to turn my attention to than the claims of a pharisee.  (And yes, I still say these things in love out of a concern for your soul, because I see that you have strayed into several grave errors.)

That is the old "prove it to me" demonic argument for those who refuse sound doctrine.  It is useless arguing with the blind who follow Nicolaitan overlords into the ditch.  If you don't prefer Truth to Tradition, then you have chosen your way.  Party hard.  Time is short.

Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Re 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The noise of your party is so loud you have become deaf.

~~~

At least you were warned.


S.O.L. 8/23/01

304 posted on 12/27/2002 3:11:16 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
So the Satanist supports and agrees with the Apostate.

Talk about a self-righteous pharisee...

305 posted on 12/27/2002 4:28:24 PM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: 2sheep
Again, may the blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you during this Holy Season, and may the glory of His Grace fill your heart and your life.
306 posted on 12/27/2002 5:22:55 PM PST by MWS
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To: Eagle Eye
I'm pretty sure that steeples were not invented to provide landmarks. That aspect is simply incidental.

You may be correct but to convince me, I'd need to see evidence. I can't recall seeing steeples on Egyptian temples, in ancient Greek architecture or, in pre-Christian Roman architecture. Actually, I don't recall seeing steeples in any pre-Christian architecture at all. I'm no expert so if you can point me to examples of pagan pre-Christian temples having steeples, I'd greatly appreciate it and will re-evaluate my position accordingly. I'm leery of textual references because they're so hard to reference. However, a picture or a drawing would be worth a thousand words.

Have you ever checked out what the OT "groves" were that Jehova found so despicable?

Never in the sense of directed study. I've read things here and there but don't have any set opinions. I dimly recall something in OT scripture about "spreading trees" but I never thought of them as conifers as most conifers have an upright habit.

Have you ever made the connection between groves, fertility worship, and forbidden gods of fertility?

Again, I've never directed much study effort into this area.

Do you really think that it blesses God that those claiming to be 'His people' refuse to separate themselves from traditions, practices, and symbols that He banned in OT times and has never since blessed?

I would say no. Fortunately, God looks at our attitudes. Otherwise, we'd be lost as there are so many things that Christians do which have pagan origins. For example, the Olympics have a pagan origin yet I've never heard a Christian condemn the Olympics or forbid participation in track and field events.

307 posted on 12/27/2002 9:07:54 PM PST by fso301
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To: MWS; DouglasKC; Eagle Eye; ALS; Crazymonarch; Prodigal Daughter
>>"Evangelization" is a buzz word used by the globalist change agents in the seeker-sensitive apostate churches.

>On the contrary, evangelization is a real word with a real meaning that is at the very basis of what it means to be Christian.

Here are clips of three articles on "Evangelization" --

A HOUSE OF HERESY... USING THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN
By: Paul Proctor

 
On September 2nd (2001) the New York Times reported the following:  "Aaron Sorkin, the executive producer of "The West Wing" on NBC, says he hopes to break a longstanding network taboo this coming television season: he wants a character to curse in a way that uses the Lord's name in vain."

As Cable Applies Pressure, Network TV Spouts Expletives 

Agape Press began their report on the shocking announcement with, "Parents Beware!" while various conservative commentators busied themselves rallying the troops to make their voices heard by television executives. It seems that writers for the big three networks have been commissioned by producers to begin including in their scripts for the new fall lineup all sorts of language that Christians will obviously find offensive, the worst of which is of course "using the Lord's name in vain".

Yes, it is sad to watch our culture morally plummeting before our eyes, not by default mind you, but by design. If nothing else this story should put and end to any additional argument or speculation as to the liberal agenda. There is no slippery slope involved here, my friends. This is clearly a swan dive into the filthy abyss. Only a fool would deny that the primary goal and purpose here is outright rebellion against God.

However, before we start sending our flaming letters of "righteous indignation" to secular society for "using the Lord's name in vain", perhaps we should get our own house in order first. So what's wrong with the language of the church today? Are we too, guilty of breaking the third commandment?

You see, not only does the "GD" word qualify as "using the Lord's name in vain", so does invoking the name of Christ to carry out occult agendas like "evangelization", (church-growth via ecumenism) which for the record, is not "The Great Commission". Whatever you do, don't confuse "evangelization" with evangelism. Evangelization was designed and implemented by demonically led church growth gurus to win "people groups", (countries, cultures, cities and communities, etc.) into a socialistic system of christianized collectivism known as "dominion theology" using the tactics and manipulation of the Hegelian Dialectic or "consensus process". The "church growth movement", made popular by Willow Creek Community Church and Saddleback Community Church is the product of Fuller Theological Seminary. Evangelism, on the other hand, is the Christian's call to simply "preach the gospel to every living creature" that they may respond personally and individually to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith under the guidance, direction, power and conviction of the Holy Spirit. Evangelization and evangelism are two entirely different things. Confusing the two has subsequently led many well-meaning Christians and missionaries into working for the enemy "in the name of Christ".

Far more shocking and outrageous to me than the indecent language of unregenerate Hollywood actors is the number of beguiled believers being recruited by their own local church into various "movements", "networks", "conferences", "missions teams" and "visioning sessions" where attendees are piously instructed to leave their doctrinal differences at the door "for the cause of Christ". Well, DON'T YOU DO IT! The cause of Christ is not achieved by sacrificing truth. Today's wolves and blind guides may be winning the world "in Jesus' name", but they are certainly not winning it for Him.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23)

Did the Lord tell Noah to build an ark big enough, fancy enough and entertaining enough for everyone to enter and enjoy? Did the Lord send Moses back to Egypt to transform it into a Jewish nation? Did Joshua have Israel gather around Jericho to promote "tolerance, diversity and unity" in the name of the Lord? We seem to have again forgotten here that Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". He came to save you and me FROM THE WORLD not TO THE WORLD or WITH THE WORLD! Unfortunately, the gospel is being re-invented in much the same way socialist/liberals re-invented government; by attracting large crowds of jaded consumers with celebrities, entertainment, drama and a touchy-feely, group-centered theology all designed to condition them into a dependency, not on Christ, but on the collectivist communes of a global religion. With an unbiblical emphasis on human relationships guided by the artificial wisdom of "Christian psychology" (oxymoron), "evangelization" is successfully seducing mainstream Christianity into an apostasy that is nothing but Christian-flavored socialism.

In career advancing cooperation, today's pseudo shepherds of feelings and finance market this narcissistic gospel to manipulate the flock into unequally yoking themselves to the world's goats in preparation for that charming miracle worker who will soon come and deceive many with "signs and lying wonders". In their blindness, the deceived will be led through the peer pressure of "mentoring" down a primrose path Jesus called "the broad way" by a delusion of illusion that will stir their emotions, stimulate their flesh and steer them away from eternal life in Christ.

Now don't get me wrong. Christians should BY ALL MEANS protest the filth and godlessness we see on TV, not just for the good of our children, but for the good of society as a whole. We are to be the "salt of the Earth". No, I don't like hearing my Lord's name used in an unholy way either. But all the outrage in the world isn't going bring the lost to Christ in a house of heresy. What glory is it to God if we lead men and women into the freedom of faith in Christ only to have them led back into the bondage of group-think, idol worship and U.N. pantheism by demonically powered cults like Promise Keepers, Willow Creek and Women of Faith? No, the postmodern church is going to have to do ITS repenting FIRST if they expect anyone else to follow by example.

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:5)



 

 DIAPRAX GOES TO Seminary ~ by Paul Proctor -- excerpt:

Commenting on:  
'Interactive team-building seminar' called cutting-edge way of learning 

For those unacquainted with the term 'Diaprax', it is simply another word for the Hegelian Dialectic or consensus process -- a deceitful procedure designed to bring about change through conflict and compromise that was conceived in the late 1700's by transformational Marxist, Georg Wilhelm Fredric Hegel who sought, as occult-led globalists do to this day, ‘unity in diversity' – a term many of us became familiar with under the Clinton Administration. Diaprax, a word coined by author and teacher Dean Gotcher, essentially brings together people of diverse and often opposing backgrounds, worldviews and belief systems in hopes they will forfeit their own values, traditions and absolutes for the emotional rewards of group acceptance.
...
Do yourself a favor and read the Baptist Press article above. What you'll see is the dialectic language of a brave new world that lures its targets with words like, 'interactive', 'image-rich', 'cutting edge', 'futurist', 'new learning strategy', 'rewired', 'leadership', 'team-building', 'transition', 'audience', 'participative', 'entrepreneurial', 'next millennium', 'whatever it takes', 'dialog', 'evaluate', 'programming', 'new paradigm', 'image-based', 'carving ministries', 'casting ministries', 'experiential momentum', 'passion-driven', 'purpose-driven', 'success', 'non-relevant lectures', 'post-modern', 'concepts', 'solidifying', 'invest', 'money', 'resources', 'conversational', 'intentionally relational', 'share experiences', and 'connecting'.

Words you WON’T see in the article are God, Jesus Christ, cross, sin, rebellion, repentance, confession, forgiveness, grace, mercy, wisdom, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, the Holy Spirit, edification, sanctification, glorification or even salvation. Why? -- Because this 'model of things to come for teaching in our churches'  is not about the Gospel of Christ. It is about avoiding it at all costs.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." – 2nd Timothy 4:3-4


>>> Paul Proctor - archives <<<




THE WORLD CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT EVANGELISM VS. EVANGELIZATION ~ by Albert James Dager - excerpt:  
Evangelization no longer seeks to bring people to a saving knowledge of Christ in repentance, but rather to "insert" a "Christian presence" in geographical regions, adapting the gospel to regional cultures by telling them that God "loves" them and has a plan for them, rather than proclaiming the "one and ONLY salvation through Jesus Christ" and renouncing of the world. 

308 posted on 12/27/2002 10:53:16 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: fso301
Fortunately, God looks at our attitudes.

God craves those that dilligently seek truth and righteousness, not those who merely accept what is handed to them.

"Seek and ye shall find", it says.

You have been told, you are now responsible to seek the truth. If you choose to let it slide after today, you can never say you weren't told.

309 posted on 12/28/2002 7:14:24 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Eagle Eye
You have been told, you are now responsible to seek the truth

Actually, you have also been told. To help you out, I've included the following links from respected bible commentaries concerning Jeremiah 10. I also provided a link from the Jewish Bible concerning Jeremiah 10. Verses 4-5 are in my opinion key to understanding why this scripture refers to a totem pole like idol. A christmas tree definitely stands upright but has no resemblance to a palm tree. A totem would bear a closer resemblance. The Jewish Bible refers to them as "pillars in a field of cucumbers". Certainly not how one would envisage Christmas trees.

Matthew-Henry
http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC24010.HTM

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
http://www.ccel.org/j/jfb/jfb/JFB24.htm#Chapter10

Jewish Bible
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Bible/Jeremiah10.html

I'm still waiting for links to pictures, drawings or murals of ancient pagan temples with steeples.

310 posted on 12/28/2002 11:15:15 AM PST by fso301
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To: fso301
Actually, you have also been told.

Told of or warned of what? What practice am I advocating that invovles idols or idolotry-ridden rituals and celbrations? What dangers to my fellowship are there in NOT celebrating traditonal holidays with pagan and idoltrous roots? You won't catch me celebrating Mardi Gras, either!

Those who advocate and justify traditional Christmas and Easter celebrations are advocationg and justifying precisely what I have described.

311 posted on 01/02/2003 8:50:41 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: fso301
Actually, you have also been told.

Told of or warned of what? What practice am I advocating that invovles idols or idolotry-ridden rituals and celbrations? What dangers to my fellowship are there in NOT celebrating traditonal holidays with pagan and idoltrous roots? You won't catch me celebrating Mardi Gras, either!

Those who advocate and justify traditional Christmas and Easter celebrations are advocating and justifying precisely what I have described.

312 posted on 01/02/2003 8:51:18 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Eagle Eye
And a Bump for the actual PAGAN holiday of Equinox, stolen by the Christian Church and called Easter.

I hope your children enjoyed the Pagan tradition of hunting for Eggs and gifts.

Life springs anew, it is spring, it is a time to celebrate the renewal of life.
313 posted on 04/20/2003 11:00:44 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: Aric2000
I hope your children enjoyed the Pagan tradition of hunting for Eggs and gifts.

I hope you're being sarcastic. We don't celebrate Easter. That should have been clear in this thread.

FWIW, my kids went to the mall. I worked.

314 posted on 04/20/2003 8:48:39 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
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