Jobs come and go, and sometimes they just go

Seattle Post Intelligencer ^ | December 26, 2002 | BILL VIRGIN

[nanny]

Baloney!!! When there is nothing to say - you can always fall back on name calling.

You are the one who began the blame game here. You have educated all of us why union jobs went overseas. Since many, many of these jobs are not union, we need to know just why non union jobs went overseas. How about I phrase it this way - fill in the blank to make the statement relevent to non-union jobs. "______________________________________ it becomes more productive to have it done out of the country. Then they wonder why their jobs go away. Funny how it works."

I repeat trashing the unions is just outdated and makes no sense anymore.

[gcruse]

My last post said nothing about unions. However, your thinking that you somehow deserve the job you want and it is wrong for someone not to give it to you, it unionism on a stick. Would I be wrong to say that you are either a union member or closely associated with one?

[nanny]

p>Now stick with me here. Your posts had everything to do with unions - now don't try to backtrack.

If you want to debate - let's do it - but first you have to admit or 'own upto' what you said.

You made the statements the unions priced themselves out of the job market, etc.

When I asked what about non-union jobs - you said the article was talking about unionized industries.

I replied I interpreted the article as speaking of jobs in general - so what about non-union jobs. You took exception to a word I used and accused me of being a democrat and a leftie.

I asked again what about non-union jobs and you reply your post was not about union jobs -

I keep trying to get you back to your original post and my original question. If you refuse to do that - then let's just don't debate.

(Unions and their goons drive up the cost of their labor to the point it becomes more productive to have it done out of the country. Then they wonder why their jobs go away. Funny how it works.)
Now could we try again - since all the jobs lost were not union jobs - to what would you attribute their loss?And you are right your last post was not about unions - It was just more attacks and obfucation.

[dtel]

Do ya'll feel that this was a fairly written article, depicting the scene as it exists today?
Yes or no.

[nanny]

Do ya'll feel that this was a fairly written article, depicting the scene as it exists today? Yes or no.

Fair to whom? I am not sure what you mean by that - but do I feel it depicts the scene as it exists today? Yes, except it does not go far enough. It would lead one to believe the jobs lost are in large industrialized cities and that is not the case. Our little town of less than 3,000 lost their sewing factory (100 jobs) to Mexico. These were not high paying jobs and were not union jobs. These people were paid up to 2 years unemployment and a job training for any job they would like. AS one lady replied when I reminded her of this , "what kind of job should I train for in this town?"

Sure she could train for some job in the computer industry, move her family to the city - until they 'outsource' that job, or 'import' a H1B worker.

[gcruse]

p>Now stick with me here. Your posts had everything to do with unions - now don't try to backtrack.

        The post you refer to had nothing to do with unions, but with whether anyone
         'deserves' not to lose their job if they haven't done anything 'wrong.'

If you want to debate - let's do it - but first you have to admit or 'own upto' what you said.

            If you are going to continue to lie, there will be no discussion.  The last
             post  suggests that with your view on jobs, you are closely associated
            with union membership.  Are you?

You made the statements the unions priced themselves out of the job market, etc.

When I asked what about non-union jobs - you said the article was talking about unionized industries.

                 The companies in the article, as I mentioned in another post, are
                  heaviliy unionized, ie, lumber, steel, smelting...

I replied I interpreted the article as speaking of jobs in general - so what about non-union jobs. You took exception to a word I used and accused me of being a democrat and a leftie.

               The belief that you deserve to keep a job because you didn't do anything
                wrong when a company restructures is a leftist, union mentality.

I asked again what about non-union jobs and you reply your post was not about union jobs -

                     No one except the self-employed 'deserves' their job.  Do you get it yet?

I keep trying to get you back to your original post and my original question. If you refuse to do that - then let's just don't debate.

                   This hasn't been a debate.  This has been you making excuses for
                    union excesses driving basic industries out of business in the US.

Now could we try again - since all the jobs lost were not union jobs - to what would you attribute their loss?And you are right your last post was not about unions - It was just more attacks and obfucation.

                 You haven't been attacked, just your silly notion that someone who
                  puts a lot of money at risk to create wealth somehow owes you
                  a job.  And I take it that you either have been a union member, are
                  one, or are married to someone who was.
23 posted on 12/26/2002 6:10 PM CST by nanny

[nanny]

Just answer the question - why are we loosing non-union jobs? Do you know? If you don't know, have the class to say so. There is no need to accuse me of being a Democrat, Union member, lefty - just answer the question or say ' I don't know'. Simple.

Once again, stick with me here - I asked about non-union jobs -

[dtel]

Union, union, union. Everything boils down to nonunion or union in your distorted little world, eh?
Let us see...why would smelting (making things very hot), mining (going deep below ground), and timber (bringing very tall things down to earth), have in common?
Hmmmm....could it be that it is very easy to die at any of these jobs on any given day?
Hmmmm....now why would those jobs be heavily unionized?
Hmmmm....could it be the company's tried to take advantage of the employees and their families when said employees died or got injured on the job?
Nah, couldn't be.
Are you getting a crick in your neck from tilting at windmills?

[gcruse]

Union or not (in your case, union), no one owes you a job of your liking. If my investment return is damaged by keeping jobs in the US, I will outplace them and not think a second thought about it. When it's your money, you can decide. I am finished here.

[gcruse]

It is obvious to me that Nanny is or was one of the union goons I have spent a lifetime fighting, along with their socialist mindset. For better or worse, I believe in the free flow of capital and that means if I can get what I need outside the country at the quality and price I need, I will do it.

[chit*chat]

Unions and their goons drive up the cost of their labor to the point it becomes more productive to have it done out of the country. Then they wonder why their jobs go away. Funny how it works.

I can't speak for all union employees, just the helicopter division of The Boeing Company where I work. The union employees there are very dedicated men and women who know and care about the product they make. The new MFG technique is Lean Manufacturing where most of the work is outsourced. It is supposed to reduce cost and be more efficient.

Just one example: in our facility, if you needed to replace a piece of wire on the assembly line, the mechanic would go to the Wire Shop which was adjacent to the assembly line. Now that work is done in Baltimore, MD. The piece of wire that could be replaced in 20 minutes now takes 2 weeks - if you are lucky. Mechanics are often idle and not happy waiting for parts that used to be readily available. And you knew the sheetmetal, machinist, etc. that was providing the part for you. You worked as a team, a family.

Last summer supervisors were telling mechanics to use sick leave or vacation to take long weekends due to hold for parts. And if you think this results in cheaper prices for the consumer, guess again. The minimum wage employee currently making the wire bundles for Boeing does not care about the product the way the Boeing employee does. That minimum wage employee is thinking about how he can get a higher paying job, not about the function of the part he/she is making. Our children fly in these aircraft and we build pride into each one. Those of us who remain.

In many ways, you get what you pay for. The men on the shop floor work in 150 degree temperatures during the summer, winter is cold but not that bad. There are some lazy bums, sure, but 90% are great, knowledgable and technically competent employees. I can tell you that IMHO it is the bonus hungry executives that don't care about the end product and who don't earn their pay, not the man on the production floor.

I am not a union employee or an anti-management person. But everyone piles on the guy who does the grunt work and carries the salary/overhead on their back. If a union person is not doing their job, then management has a right to document it and get rid of the guy. That's management's job, not the union's fault.

[dtel]

Buy whatever you want from Wong Dong Chopsticks, but when you get ready to sell your house and move on up to the East Side, don't come bitchin' around here because nobody can afford your asking price.

[nanny]

So you know the union is responsible for loosing union jobs - but you dont' know what is responsible for loosing non-union jobs. That's all you had to say.

[stormtx]

Quite a treasonous statement . I think some freepers( if the label fits) out here are Full on Ayn Rand types who couldn't care less about their country as long as it's not their job or more likely "trust fund" .They will see the light when all their dollar valued investments are now equivalent to rupies or yuan or rubles. This is an umitigated orgy of greed brought on by the wanton desires of the "never had to work hard " baby boom generation ( not all but alot..once again if the shoe fits ) . I firmly fixate on this generation because I doubt that their Parents would have ever sold out their sons and daughters future or the future of their country for a few extra bucks it would have been unthinkable...Nowadays corporate boomer CEO's bring down multi million dolar salaries totally disproportianate to any service they provide and yet say the company can't remain competitive unless it moves jobs overseas.. I think it would be easier to just fire the boomer CEO's and replace them with retirees who will work for a fair wage then to send all the middle class jobs overseas. Witness our government full of boomers continuing to import H1b's and nodding and winking at Global Outsourcing. How will they find parts for the F-16's which are now no longer made in America, This is a security issue as well. The government should be doing all it can to protect American manufacturing and jobs at all costs ,tariffs and incentives are the way to go.When this country was founded We had no income tax all national revenue was based on tariffs and duties. The loss of all jobs in USA is a net loss to all of us. I think you should follow your investment overseas and get out of the way of America. I hope all those that ship jobs overseas lose all there investments to some third world nationalization drive or destabilization or corruption . I believe in the American Worker and if We could just kick these Globalist traitors ( who claim to be American companies)
off our shoreline we could have a entrepeneurial renaisance like the World has never seen.I for myself will Vote AMERICA FIRST until all those who put money before country are out of here.

[gcruse]

Quite a treasonous statement . I think some freepers( if the label fits) out here are Full on Ayn Rand type

It's called capitalism and freedom.  You wouldn't understand.

[stormtx]

"It's called capitalism and freedom. You wouldn't understand"


It's called Patriotism and Love of God and Country and your the one who doesn't understand x10.