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Owners of environmentally friendly cars protest at Los Angeles Auto Show
AP | 1/04/03 | GARY GENTILE

Posted on 01/04/2003 2:48:29 AM PST by kattracks

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- More than 70 hybrid cars were parked outside the Los Angeles Convention Center to send a message to Detroit automakers: There is a demand for fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles.

The gathering Friday of hybrid car owners from Sacramento to San Diego, as well as Hollywood celebrities, contrasted with the muscle cars and gas-guzzling SUVs inside at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.

Hybrid cars combine a gasoline engine with an electric motor. Some cars, like the Toyota Prius, use the electric motor exclusively at low speeds, while others, such as Honda's Civic, use power from both at all speeds.

"We're here to show that people are interested in something to promote clean air with less fuel," said Jessie Williams, who drove his Prius from El Cajon.

Actress Nancy Allen traded her Volvo in for a Prius last July.

"It's so peppy," she said. "Every day I drive it, I feel I'm giving something back to the environment and giving something back to myself."

The protest came as the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report concluding that American-made cars and trucks could reach an average of 60 miles per gallon by the end of the next decade by adopting the best hybrid technology.

Hybrids cost more than conventional cars. But buyers can qualify for a federal tax deduction and local tax incentives in some areas.

Chrysler Group President Dieter Zetsche downplayed hybrids in a speech Thursday, saying fuel cell technology is the ultimate answer and that improving existing diesel technology is a better short-term alternative.

Ford is producing a hybrid SUV and introduced a reduced-emissions Focus at the show Thursday.

Actress Donna Mills stopped driving her Lexus when she bought one of the first Prius hybrids 2½ years ago.

"Enough already with being dependent on foreign countries for oil or drilling in the Arctic for oil," she said. "People want these cars. People love them. Make them."

------

On the Net:

Greater Los Angeles Auto Show: http://www.laautoshow.com/

Copyright 2003 Associated Press. All rights reserved.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
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1 posted on 01/04/2003 2:48:29 AM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
would have been funny if their was a hummer convention going on the same time.You guys park over their, oops sorry.
2 posted on 01/04/2003 2:54:11 AM PST by goose1
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To: kattracks
I want to thank these gas saveing people for leaving more for me and my 5 mpg motorhome!
3 posted on 01/04/2003 3:01:06 AM PST by Highest Authority
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To: kattracks
One version: "I'm soooo jealous of your cool car. I can't get attention in my crap-mobile so I'll rant against what you like."

Another version: "I'm a socialist control freak and until you ride the bus, buy a 'smegway' or 'conform to my views now, dammit!' I'm going to whine until what I want is mine."

Another version: "I'm so freakin' clueless that I forget that the plastic in my car caused the same 'environmental impact' as the plastic in the 'gas guzzling' SUV, or since I'm still driving my own 'shiny metal box' the roads will have to be maintained and improved at the expense of the 'ecosystem', or that if I actually had any conviction at all I would get a horse (NOT!) or a bicycle.

4 posted on 01/04/2003 3:15:15 AM PST by Looking4Truth
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To: kattracks
Actress Nancy Allen displays the engine of her car during a rally of hybrid car owners demonstarting outside the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show Friday, Jan 3, 2003. The Union of Concerned Scientists issued a report Friday, Jan. 3, 2003, calling on auto manufacturers to fully embrace hybrid technology as a means of boosting fuel efficiency and cutting pollution. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)
- Jan 03 1:42 PM ET

Owners of hybrid cars rally outside the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show early Friday morning, Jan. 3, 2003, in support of a report issued by The Union of Concerned Scientists. The report calls on auto manufacturers to fully embrace hybrid technology as a means of boosting fuel efficiency and cutting pollution. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)
- Jan 03 1:39 PM ET

5 posted on 01/04/2003 3:25:52 AM PST by Oldeconomybuyer
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To: kattracks
"It's so peppy," she said. "Every day I drive it, I feel I'm giving something back to the environment and giving something back to myself."

It's still using some gas, which still is polluting the air and causing global warming and contributing to deaths of humans and many other species. It's also requiring additional features that help it save gas but cost more and require extra polluting manufacturing processes..which kill more trees and animals and people.

It's just like you killed them yourself.
So what the hell are you giving back to the environment?

6 posted on 01/04/2003 3:28:10 AM PST by Jorge
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To: kattracks
Owners of slow cars always refer to them as "peppy".
7 posted on 01/04/2003 3:34:43 AM PST by Fresh Wind
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To: Jorge
Don't worry, Nancy doesn't really think she is giving something back to the environment, she merely feels that way.
8 posted on 01/04/2003 3:42:07 AM PST by metesky
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To: kattracks
"There is a demand for fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles"

Yeah, but those 70 idiots already have them. Why build more that nobody else wants?

9 posted on 01/04/2003 3:45:54 AM PST by Feckless
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To: Fresh Wind
Prius is the lowest performing car on the American Market!

Hybrid Cars are a Fraud

Argument 1 These cars do NOT save the customer money (when compared to it’s sister).

Toyota says that customers are buying the Prius for it's improved gas mileage, NOT it's possible pollution reduction.

A Prius is a $10,000 Toyota Echo stretched 6" in the hood to contain the motor/generator package. Outfitting an Echo with all the nice options raises it’s cost to about $16k. The Prius model changes the name and adds a $5000 package that saves about 500 gallons of gas over 100,000 miles.

The extra $5,000 brings with it at least another $1.6k in sales tax, finance charges, insurance, and extra tire costs (low rolling resistance tires). Subtract the $600 you get for your $2000 tax rebate (ripped from my pocket) and the total cost to save 500 gallons of gas is $12 per gallon!

Surely these people are not doing the math!

Argument 2. Battery costs.

EDMUNDS recently explored the battery replacement costs for these vehicles. Honda quoted $6.5k for the Civic battery and Toyota said "about" $3k for the Prius battery. That's interesting because both batteries are made up of the same 6 amp hour "D" cells and the Honda battery is 144 volts while Toyotas is 274 volts. The Toyota battery should be the more expensive one. My own research shows the wholesale price of the Toyota battery should be about $4k based on industry sources.

Battery life is estimated to be 100,000 miles by both manufacturers (my battery manuals don't agree). The first battery is included in the purchase price but it is unlikely that any owner would be able to trade a car with a battery near, or at its end life. A lot of people are going to suffer sticker shock when they replace that battery. Battery cost will be about 4 cents per mile about the same as fuel at $2 a gallon and on top of fuel costs! I wonder what the recycle charge will be?

Battery costs are unlikely to go down much. The American manufacturer (Ovid) is currently suing Toyota and Panasonic for patent infringement. GM must not have thought that battery costs were going down either when they recently crushed (impacted?) their entire fleet of electric Impacts.

Argument 3. Extra Safety Concerns

Unlike current cars these cars have lethal battery voltages. Most manufactures plan to go to 36/42 volts in the near future, but the Civic uses 144 volts and the Prius 274 volts. Careless poking around in the wiring is likely to light up some do-it-your selfers! Even of more concern would be the exposed voltage due to a car wreck. Rescuers better be very careful where they use the jaws-of-life!

Probably even worse is high energy potential of these batteries; either contains the power of a large commercial welder. In an accident, a short could melt major hunks of steel around you and serve as an excellent ignition source for the gasoline they still carry.

I expect some every interesting crashes over the next few years.

Argument 4 NO nets gain to Mother Earth.

Any "Green" car is going to have to produce less pollution over it's entire life cycle to be taken seriously. That life cycle includes: mining the raw materials, processing them, forming them, assembly, operating costs, and recycle costs. Better gas mileage alone is NOT a reasonable criteria if more pollution is generated during production and recycle than is saved during operation.

GM has said it will charge about $3,000 extra for these cars and will sell them (at first) at cost. I take that to mean that their costs are much more than $3,000 (they must be making something on the ones they sell now). Many insiders also believe that Honda and Toyota are selling their cars well below cost (Honda quotes $4.5k for a replacement motor and $6.5k for a replacement battery, $11k, but only charges $3k).

These extra costs involve energy intensive materials in large quantities, such as nickel and copper. Battery manufacture and recycling are dirty chemical operations. Since the total fuel savings is about 500 gallons or $750 worth of energy, it is very likely that these cars have "burned" more energy than that in their many thousands of dollars of extra manufacturing costs. If not, recycling would certainly put them over the edge.

The net saving to the planet is likely negative not positive, the owner just doesn't know it, as he shows off his new "Green" vehicle!

One last bitch: It's one thing for consumers to make stupid choices in the market place, it's quite another to ask me to help pay for that bad decision in my taxes!
10 posted on 01/04/2003 3:48:07 AM PST by John Jamieson
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To: kattracks
The horse presented a pollution problem in cities -so along comes Henry Ford and the car is born.

Now the car presents pollution problem in cities - so the solution is ....????

Another car???

Don't think so. Not yet, anyway. (last year the solution was that battery operated pogo stick).
11 posted on 01/04/2003 3:48:34 AM PST by The Raven
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To: Looking4Truth
Another version: "I'm a socialist control freak and until you ride the bus, buy a 'smegway' or 'conform to my views now, dammit!' I'm going to whine until what I want is mine."

And then, when I have you under control in the apartment block in the city, I'll just drive the Suburban out to my Dacha in the country to enjoy the fresh air. One needs to unwind after doing it to...er,uh...doing the people's work. The Dacha used to belong to a retired auto worker that saved all his life for it, but why does he need such a large place anyway?

12 posted on 01/04/2003 3:55:02 AM PST by RushLake
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To: Highest Authority
Saudi Arabia appreciates your support.
13 posted on 01/04/2003 3:55:48 AM PST by per loin
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To: goose1
I grow so weary of the term "gas guzzeling " stuck in front of SUV. Vehicles getting 22+ mpg are hardly guzzelers. My 1ton truck at 17mpg diesel is hardly a guzzeler considering what it carries/pulls.
14 posted on 01/04/2003 4:00:44 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: metesky
The thing that bothers the sh_t out of me with these goofballs is they want to force their “values” on everyone!

They don't believe in freedom... they believe in doctrine!

15 posted on 01/04/2003 4:01:14 AM PST by johnny7
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To: johnny7
And they want you to help pay for their folly! Any SUV owners out there asking for a Federal handout?
16 posted on 01/04/2003 4:04:43 AM PST by John Jamieson
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To: kattracks
Actress Nancy Allen traded her Volvo in for a Prius last July.

She will wish she still had the Volvo the first time she attempts to pass a car on a 2-lane road.

17 posted on 01/04/2003 4:08:25 AM PST by JoeGar
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To: kattracks
"The protest came as the Union of Concerned Scientists released a report concluding that American-made cars and trucks could reach an average of 60 miles per gallon by the end of the next decade by adopting the best hybrid technology."

It's clear that these "scientists" havn't thought much about the pollution and cost of replacing 20 million sets of exotic 100 pound battery packs every year in this country.
18 posted on 01/04/2003 4:10:07 AM PST by John Jamieson
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To: Feckless
Wasn't it on Rush's show that one of his funny skits had a guy saying something like "We're building three hybrid cars next year - got to keep up with the demand." I always enjoy seeing one of those little capsules on wheels trying to drive up a steep grade near here - especially fun since the little guy is always surrounded by SUVs and huge trucks, for whom he would be simply a hood ornament.
19 posted on 01/04/2003 4:20:58 AM PST by Moonmad27
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To: Fresh Wind
Somebody kill me please before I have to drive a peppy car.
20 posted on 01/04/2003 4:43:20 AM PST by NYpeanut
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To: John Jamieson
Good post. Thanks.
21 posted on 01/04/2003 4:57:09 AM PST by metesky
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To: John Jamieson
Any SUV owners out there asking for a Federal handout?

Yes, just listen to them scream and whine when gas prices rise...

Meanwhile, I'll just continue to fill up every 10 to 14 days and get 52 MPG in the meantime. ;-)

22 posted on 01/04/2003 5:01:01 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: John Jamieson

Argument 3. Extra Safety Concerns

Unlike current cars these cars have lethal battery voltages. Most manufactures plan to go to 36/42 volts in the near future, but the Civic uses 144 volts and the Prius 274 volts. Careless poking around in the wiring is likely to light up some do-it-your selfers! Even of more concern would be the exposed voltage due to a car wreck. Rescuers better be very careful where they use the jaws-of-life!

Probably even worse is high energy potential of these batteries; either contains the power of a large commercial welder. In an accident, a short could melt major hunks of steel around you and serve as an excellent ignition source for the gasoline they still carry.

I expect some every interesting crashes over the next few years.

Utterly false. "A fire involving a hybrid vehicle will be able to be handled by following normal vehicle firefighting procedures." University of Extrication.

You gas hog fans are sure worried about the availability of highly efficient vehicles, to put forth so much effort into trying to squash sales. Are y'all worried about not sending enough money to keep the Saudis in air conditioning? How's the buggy whip industry doing?

23 posted on 01/04/2003 5:25:40 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
You gas hog fans are sure worried about the availability of highly efficient vehicles

How smug. Enjoying your ride in my tax dollars, are you?

I can't wait until your car is out of warranty and you get hit with that bill for all that fancy technology under that teenie-tiny hood.

24 posted on 01/04/2003 5:33:56 AM PST by Glenn
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To: John Jamieson
Re: Your #10: EXACTLY the kind of post that has kept me on this forum for over four years. Kudos and bump.
25 posted on 01/04/2003 5:39:20 AM PST by RightOnline
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To: Chemist_Geek
Me too. Y2K NB TDI and 2K3 Jetta Wagon TDI. The latter here with me in PA and I expect to be home, 650 miles away in nine or ten hours and on less than one tank of fuel.
26 posted on 01/04/2003 5:40:58 AM PST by dhuffman@awod.com
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To: Glenn
How smug.

Heck yes! I'm very proud to not be sending as much money to our enemies as I used to. Are you happy with your financial support of terrorists?

Enjoying your ride in my tax dollars

You pay taxes in Japan?

I can't wait until your car is out of warranty and you get hit with that bill for all that fancy technology under that teenie-tiny hood.

I'm trying to figure out what you meant... It's been out of warranty for a while now. What bill? :-P Keep paying the oil sheiks, Benedict...

27 posted on 01/04/2003 5:52:47 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
Accoeding to your link in Part 3:
Emergency Procedures For Hybrid Vehicles:

Before attempting to rescue occupants from a damaged Honda Insight hybrid vehicle, it is also important to reduce the potential for high-voltage current to flow into the cables from the motor or high-voltage battery.

SO I think John Jamieson is indeed correct.

Regards

alfa6 ;>}
28 posted on 01/04/2003 5:53:49 AM PST by alfa6
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To: dhuffman@awod.com
The latter here with me in PA and I expect to be home, 650 miles away in nine or ten hours and on less than one tank of fuel.

Not bad at all! (As opposed to the gas hog fan speed freaks, who would burn roughly 40 gallons of gas on the same trip...) What volume tank does the Jetta have? On the same trip, my Prius would have to stop once for gas 'cause of its 11 gallon tank.

29 posted on 01/04/2003 5:56:32 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
I'm very proud to not be sending as much money to our enemies as I used to. Are you happy with your financial support of terrorists?

You're quite a piece of work. And calling me Benedict. Too funny. You're the one who would have America flying fuel-efficient fighter jets made by the Japanese to defend your sorry-minded ass against "real" enemies.

Now, shoo. Go away, oh, pompous ass. You are truly annoying.

30 posted on 01/04/2003 6:02:29 AM PST by Glenn
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To: alfa6
SO I think John Jamieson is indeed correct.

He's not. Did you read the first technique to cut off HV? Turn off the key. No, firefighters don't do that in ordinary vehicle crashes already, yeppers, a special complicated technique for those newfangled hibrrids...

As stated previously, the best method is to turn the ignition switch off. This simple action:

Turns off the engine and the motor, which prevents electric current from flowing into the cables from the motor or high-voltage battery, and,

Turns off power to the airbags and the seatbelt pre-tensioners.

After turning off the ignition switch, it is recommended that emergency responders remove the key so the car cannot be inadvertently restarted. To let everyone at the crash scene see that the key is removed, place it on top of the dash, directly in front of the steering column. In this location, it can be viewed from every side of the vehicle.

After discussing isolating the 12 volt battery, also a special and unique technique (/sarcasm) to those hybrids...

With the ignition key turned off and removed and the 12-volt battery disconnected, the hybrid vehicle is safe to work on for vehicle rescue evolutions. High-voltage electricity still exists, but it is isolated to the battery pack in the trunk.

Unless one's got passengers in the trunk, the extrication then proceeds normally.

31 posted on 01/04/2003 6:07:06 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: Glenn
You're the one who would have America flying fuel-efficient fighter jets made by the Japanese to defend your sorry-minded ass against "real" enemies.

And you would have us on our knees before the oil sheiks begging for fuel for our jets and tanks.

Fuel efficiency is the first step to energy independence. Why chain America to mideast oil?

32 posted on 01/04/2003 6:10:44 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: Chemist_Geek
Why chain America to mideast oil?

Such rhetoric. Heating your home? Using electricity? Buying anything to eat commercially? Is there anything in your house not transported by truck, boat or plane at some point. Are those things energy positive, i.e., took no energy to build (including your smug little car)? Does your employer heat your workspace? Do they consume energy that requires oil from far away places? If so, why haven't you quit?

You're being radical simply because you bought a car. Incremental change will get us the same place in due course.

33 posted on 01/04/2003 6:17:52 AM PST by Glenn
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To: Chemist_Geek
Yes, just listen to them scream and whine when gas prices rise.

Not me. I drive my SUV approximately 15K miles per year at 18 mpg. If gas goes from $1.50 to $2.00 per gallon, then the additional cost to me is around $272 per year more than I would have to pay to drive the piece of crap that you drive. Since I'm in the 1% club, the extra $272 per year that I would save or spend (depending upon what side you're on) is neither going to make me rich nor poor nor change my life style one bit.

BTW, could you please explain how my neighbor is more green than I am simply because he drives a 40 mpg Honda 120 per day back and forth to work each day, when I only drive my 18 mpg SUV 6 miles round trip. On a typical day. Mr. Green burns 3 gallons of gas, whereas I use .34 gallons. And when you consider the energy that Mr. Green used to construct his 7600 square foot house where he lives with just his wife and dog (don't ask me which is which), plus the annual energy cost to maintain, heat, and cool his beautiful but unnecessary and overly extravagant place of abode, then perhaps Mr. Green should change his name to Mr. Pollute.

34 posted on 01/04/2003 6:24:42 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: Chemist_Geek
Have you ever worked a major auto accident?

Regards

alfa6 ;>}
35 posted on 01/04/2003 6:26:28 AM PST by alfa6
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To: Chemist_Geek
Don't your batteries require periodic recharge? If yes, how much oil/coal/natural gas is burned to supply the electric current needed to recussitate your batteries? Isn't that simply "moving" the fossil-fuel consumption from the place of use to the place of production?
36 posted on 01/04/2003 6:27:44 AM PST by Sgt_Schultze
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To: Chemist_Geek
You can politely tell us what you are driving, I doubt seriously if it is a hybrid. I buy gas from domestic suppliers, not from the saudiis. There are many companies that do not buy overseas crude, and if some companies feel like they must by from overseas then see the next paragraph.

It is our own people that have put our domestic oil exploration, drilling and production industry in the dumbster, (spelled the way I want it to be spelled). There are as many issues as people when deciding what vehicle to own, but price of unproven technology, is a price too high for the majority of folks.

Technology before its time is called inefficient, waste, spitting against the wind, etc. Car manufacturers build what people want. You have your 52mpg others have their 25, you give the impression that you are better because of what you have and I contend it is none of your business other than you are happy you have what you do.
37 posted on 01/04/2003 6:38:35 AM PST by wita
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To: wita
I see in 29 it is a Prius. I'm even more surprised at your attitude, unless of course you happen to be of the democrat persuasion.
38 posted on 01/04/2003 6:44:25 AM PST by wita
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To: kattracks
Poor Nancy Allen... destined to be a cheerleader in perpetuity. Cheerleaders are peppy, though.

It looks like I'm wasting the opportunity to be a caring phony on this fuel saving issue, as I swapped a 4WD pickup for a miniscule hatchback two years ago. I'll have to forego patting myself on the back, since my decision had nothing to do with leisure-class earth worship. I gravitated to the small cars because I found that I enjoyed driving them a lot more than the big stuff, but the increased mileage merely allows me additional money to flush away on something else. Every vehicle is a compromise, and I couldn't care less what my neighbors drive; in a free country, I expect reciprocity.

The procedural benefits of the hybrids haven't risen to the level where I would be willing to put up with one (yet). While styling is not one of my primary concerns anymore, it would also help to make the hybrids less bland/butt-ugly (although the Insight at least pays lip service to aerodnamics). For now, I just wait for the day I can swing a Mini Cooper S or Subaru WRX.

39 posted on 01/04/2003 7:01:16 AM PST by niteowl77
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To: wita
I see in 29 it is a Prius. I'm even more surprised at your attitude, unless of course you happen to be of the democrat persuasion.

Sigh. I should have more patience, 'tis true. However, if one were to look at the early posts on this thread, and on other threads here at FR discussing fuel cells and other advanced, so-called "alternative," energy devices, one will see a great deal of mocking derision. As I point out above, the gas guzzler fans are working overtime to make fun of highly efficient vehicles and to impugn the intelligence of those who design, build, and drive them. (I do two of the three...)

It irritates the heck out of me, and I do get bristly on these threads. (Which is why I'm in R&D, and not PR...) I wonder if these people would have, if they had been living 100 or so years ago, mocked and derided the horseless carraige and the Wright flyer?

I do not care for my putative allies in the Green movement. Advanced energy is a nifty technical challenge. The bonus is, of course, that I am working to liberate America from energy dependency. Our energy dependency is, to mix metaphors, the Mother of all Entangling Alliances.

40 posted on 01/04/2003 7:10:23 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: kattracks
Liberals who can afford exotic cars want them rest of us to be dependent on mass public transportation, to bicycle, and to walk. This is so snobbish and typical of them - our new upper class that gets the motorcars and we poor peons jist have to do without you know, to save the environment.
41 posted on 01/04/2003 7:15:11 AM PST by goldstategop
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To: John Jamieson

Good post and totally accurate.
42 posted on 01/04/2003 7:21:39 AM PST by tje
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To: Sgt_Schultze
Don't your batteries require periodic recharge? If yes, how much oil/coal/natural gas is burned to supply the electric current needed to recussitate your batteries?

Prius' batteries are recharged by siphoning off power from the internal combustion engine and from regenerative braking. No external power connection is installed or necessary. (Except for the optional engine block heater. That runs on mains current.)

Isn't that simply "moving" the fossil-fuel consumption from the place of use to the place of production?

That's right, for the pure electric vehicles (EVs). I'm somewhat less concerned about the emissions than the Greens are - they're SULEV fetishists, whilst I'm looking at that mileage sticker. ;-)

Now, if we were to recharge pure EVs using nuclear power, then they ought to be happy; no "pollution", right? Wrong, they'd still find something to complain about.

For emissions, I don't know about scrubbing technology, whether it's more emission-efficient to have lots of little sources each with a catalyic converter or a few big sources each with scrubbers.

43 posted on 01/04/2003 7:22:41 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: kattracks
The gathering Friday of hybrid car owners from Sacramento to San Diego

Seventy people between all of Sac and Sandy Eggo? Seventy people out of more than half the state of California? That doesn't seem like a huge demand to me...

44 posted on 01/04/2003 7:24:14 AM PST by xm177e2
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To: xm177e2
Latte liberals from Marin County I bet.
45 posted on 01/04/2003 7:33:05 AM PST by goldstategop
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To: Chemist_Geek
Thank you for your response. I don't, of course deride your choice of transportation. I do object to those who require the "government" to invest in a technology it has no immediate need for. Those who would buy the products should bear the development costs. That is why I do not currently own a $12,000 plasma tv.

As to you belief that freeing the US from its oil dependency will lead to increased safety...

If you think the Arabs hate us now, wait until we have no more use for them or their part of the world.

46 posted on 01/04/2003 10:02:38 AM PST by Sgt_Schultze
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To: kattracks
Wonder what kind of fossil feul is used to create the energy to charge the batteries in these 'environmentally friendly cars'? These wackos are clueless, unless they want to promote nuclear energy, which none of them do.
47 posted on 01/04/2003 10:05:23 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Chemist_Geek
"You gas hog fans"

The point is these cars DO NOT reduce our consumption of oil. It's just used to make batteries instead.

I do drive very fuel efficient Cadillac Northstar, but I also own or have owned many economy cars including an 87 Toyota Tercel that could hit 53 mpg on the highway. I'm hardly a buggy wip guy. I have an MIT Aero/Astro Degree and worked 27 years for NASA at KSC. Now retired.

Turbo Diesel is the economy car that makes real dollars and sense. Fuel Cells may be a long term solution but not before 2020.

Hybrids are not only not THE answer; they're NOT even an answer.

PS: I have NO finantial interest in any company in the automotive business.

Thank you for helping my develope my point of view of the past few few months. At first, I thought my initial view might be wrong.
48 posted on 01/04/2003 12:04:47 PM PST by John Jamieson
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To: Chemist_Geek
Fuel efficiency is the first step to energy independence.

One has nothing to do with the other. As is proved by our own history, when the drive for "fuel efficiency" dumbed down cars at the same time environmentalist twits like yourself prevented us as a nation from drilling for domestic oil. The truth is, regardless of how passionately your ilk quests for the holy grail of "fuel efficiency," the road to energy independence has been blocked by liberal environmentalism.

FREEDOM is the first, middle, and last step to energy independence, to whit: the freedom to explore and use our own resources. It is twits like you who constantly want to restrict Americans' vehicle choices and at the same time want to restrict Americans' ability to provide for her own energy needs.

49 posted on 01/04/2003 12:14:55 PM PST by M. Thatcher
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To: Chemist_Geek
"impugn the intelligence of those who design, build, and drive them. (I do two of the three...)"

I'm sure that you are a very bright guy, but your involment in the industry has narrowed your viewpoint to just MPG. You need to increase your view to the total energy use and pollution created by these cars over their entire life cycle. Maybe you can give us some real hard numbers?

Please compare to similar cars without the hybrid additions, not SUVs. Those are two seperate choices.
50 posted on 01/04/2003 12:25:36 PM PST by John Jamieson
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