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California Supreme Court says rape begins when woman says stop
Associated Press / SFGate

Posted on 01/06/2003 6:33:57 PM PST by RCW2001

Monday, January 6, 2003
©2003 Associated Press

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/01/06/national2027EST0776.DTL

(01-06) 17:27 PST SAN FRANCISCO (AP) --

The California Supreme Court defined rape Monday as continued sexual intercourse by a man after his female partner demands that it stop.

The 7-0 decision reverses a 1985 ruling by a lower court.

"This opinion is significant. It appears the California Supreme Court has clearly rejected an opportunity to revisit past barriers to rape convictions," said Douglas Beloof, an attorney with the National Crime Victim Law Institute.

The 2000 case involved two 17-year-olds who had sex in a bedroom during a party. The boy testified that the sex was consensual and that he stopped when the girl demanded. She testified the boy kept having sex with her for about a "minute and a half" after she called it off.

The boy was convicted of rape and served about six months in a juvenile facility. The high court affirmed that conviction Monday.

Justice Janice Rogers Brown, while agreeing with the majority on what constitutes rape, dissented on whether the boy was guilty. She wrote that the girl never clearly said stop, instead saying "I should be going now" and "I need to go home."

Brown also wondered how much time a man has to stop once a woman says stop.

"Ten seconds? Thirty?" she wrote.

©2003 Associated Press


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News
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1 posted on 01/06/2003 6:33:58 PM PST by RCW2001
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To: RCW2001
She wrote that the girl never clearly said stop, instead saying "I should be going now" and "I need to go home."

What a stupid statement. I suppose he wouldn't have understood "Get away from me, you jerk" either.

2 posted on 01/06/2003 6:44:49 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: RCW2001
Two teens are having sex. In the midst of this, the girl says "I should be going now" and "I need to go home." 90 seconds elapse before he stops. The boy is guilty of rape according to these ultra-liberal judges.

Is it me or does this utterly defy logic, biology, and justice? Is not this boy completely innocent?

3 posted on 01/06/2003 6:45:07 PM PST by friendly
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To: RCW2001
The 2000 case involved two 17-year-olds who had sex in a bedroom during a party. The boy testified that the sex was consensual and that he stopped when the girl demanded. She testified the boy kept having sex with her for about a "minute and a half" after she called it off. The boy was convicted of rape and served about six months in a juvenile facility.

Serves him right.

4 posted on 01/06/2003 6:47:22 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: friendly
Unless you're having sex at 60 mph, I don't see why it takes 90 seconds to stop :-)
5 posted on 01/06/2003 6:48:00 PM PST by AM2000
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To: RCW2001
"Romance, finis. Your chance, finis.
Those ants that invaded my pants, finis.
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered - no more.

6 posted on 01/06/2003 6:48:03 PM PST by Six Bells
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To: RCW2001
Let's see....

17 year old girl say "Okie Dokie" to sex.

At some point during intercourse she says "Well, I guess I should go home" or "I should be leaving."

He countinues for "about a minute or a minute and a half" (according to her testimony.

The guy ( no age given) is CONVICTED OF RAPE~!

What a bunch of crap.

7 posted on 01/06/2003 6:48:12 PM PST by San Jacinto
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To: RCW2001
This is farcical. But when Clinton violently raped Juanita Broaddrick, that was OK?

Rape is a very serious crime. When you start confusing it with other, lesser offenses the end result will be lower sentences for all kinds of rape, including the real thing.
8 posted on 01/06/2003 6:48:57 PM PST by Cicero
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To: friendly
I'd say the boy was innocent. I also wonder how this came to the law's attention. Did this vicious little b*tch go and swear out charges against him?
9 posted on 01/06/2003 6:50:04 PM PST by per loin
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To: San Jacinto
Now I see the article says the boy was 17 also.
10 posted on 01/06/2003 6:50:32 PM PST by San Jacinto
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To: RCW2001
Not to minimize the crime of rape, but wasn't there a song back in the early 90s named (and sung by a woman)"When I say no, I mean maybe"?
11 posted on 01/06/2003 6:51:12 PM PST by Ipse Dixit
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To: RCW2001
Last year I testified at a rape trial in Virginia. The defendant [male] was an 18 year old boy. The complainant was an 18 year old girl. After drinking rather more than they BOTH should have, an act of intercourse took place. This was confirmed the next day by medical testing. The girl discovered what had happened the the next morning. [Oh yeah - they were both sharing a sleeping bag.] RAPE she screamed. The police descended and took the boy off to jail. Alas neither of them could remember what had happened. End of case, right? WRONG!! He was indicted and stood trial for rape. The point at issue was weather or not she had suffered an alcoholic 'blackout' or weather or not the alcohol had rendered her unconscious. In a 'blackout' she would have been conscious but unable to remember what had happened. Why did the case proceed? Because, according to the girl, it must have been rape because, 'she was not that sort of girl.' Fortunately in the rebuttal phase of the trial, upon questioning by the commonwealth's attorney, she blurted out, "I don't remember. I don't remember. I must have blacked out." End of testimony, End of trial. Time for all to go home. At the time he was a virgin, she wasn't. Of course she wasn't 'that sort of girl. And they were both underage vis a vis the consumption of alcohol. That'll teach him!!!!!
12 posted on 01/06/2003 6:51:45 PM PST by drjoe
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To: friendly
It's not just you. It's me too.
13 posted on 01/06/2003 6:53:37 PM PST by Savage Beast
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To: RCW2001
Paradise By The Dashboard Lights

Boy:
I remember every little thing
As if it happened only yesterday
Parking by the lake
And there was not another car in sight
And I never had a girl
Looking any better than you did
And all the kids at school
They were wishing they were me that night

And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!

Though it's cold and lonely in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light

Girl:
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed

Ain't no doubt about it
Baby got to go and shout it
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed

Boy:
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely dressed

Baby doncha hear my heart
You got it drowning out the radio
I've been waiting so long
For you to come along and have some fun

And I gotta let ya know
No you're never gonna regret it
So open up your eyes I got a big surprise
It'll feel all right
Well I wanna make your motor run

And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!

Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light

You got to do what you can
And let Mother Nature do the rest
Ain't no doubt about it
We were doubly blessed
Cause we were barely seventeen
And we were barely--

We're gonna go all the way tonight
We're gonna go allt he way
An tonight's the night...

Radio Broadcast:
Ok, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker
going here, two down, nobody on, no score,
bottom of the ninth, there's the wind-up and
there it is, a line shot up the middle, look
at him go. This boy can really fly!
He's rounding first and really turning it on
now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna
try for second; the ball is bobbled out in center,
and here comes the throw, and what a throw!
He's gonna slide in head first, here he comes, he's out!
No, wait, safe--safe at second base, this kid really
makes things happen out there.
Batter steps up to the plate, here's the pitch--
he's going, and what a jump he's got, he's trying
for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt--
safe at third! Holy cow, stolen base!
He's taking a pretty big lead out there, almost
daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher
glance over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted
down the third base line, the suicide squeeze in on!
Here he comes, squeeze play, it's gonna be close,
here's the throw, there's the play at the plate,
holy cow, I think he's gonna make it!

II. Let Me Sleep On It

Girl:
Stop right there!
I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further--!

Do you love me?
Will you love me forever?
Do you need me?
Will you never leave me?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
Do you love me!?
Will you love me forever!?
Do you need me!?
Will you never leave me!?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life!?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife!?
I gotta know right now
Before we go any further
Do you love me!!!?
Will you love me forever!!!?

Boy:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning

Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning

Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning

Girl:
I gotta know right now!
Do you love me?
Will you love me forever?
Do you need me?
Will you never leave me?
Will you make me so happy for the rest of my life?
Will you take me away and will you make me your wife?
I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further
Do you love me?
And will you love me forever?

Boy:
Let me sleep on it
Baby, baby let me sleep on it
Let me sleep on it
And I'll give you my answer in the morning
Let me sleep on it!!!

Girl:
Will you love me forever?

Boy:
Let me sleep on it!!!

Girl:
Will you love me forever!!!

III. Praying for the End of Time

Boy:
I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god and on my mother's grave
That I would love you to the end of time
I swore that I would love you to the end of time!

So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
It's all that I can do
Praying for the end of time, so I can end my time with you!!!

Boy:
It was long ago and it was far away
and it was so much better than it is today

Girl:
It never felt so good
It never felt so right
And we were glowing like
A metal on the edge of a knife

14 posted on 01/06/2003 6:53:41 PM PST by csvset
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To: RCW2001
Let me understand this.

Two consenting people are having sex. While they are actively engaging in sexual intercourse, the girl says stop.

The boy takes his time to stop and that constitutes rape?

Isn't that fact that they ALREADY are engaging in sexual intercourse would mean it can not be rape.

Now I might call it assault if he refused to stop.

15 posted on 01/06/2003 6:53:52 PM PST by JZoback
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To: RCW2001
She wrote that the girl never clearly said stop, instead saying "I should be going now" and "I need to go home."

Reminds me of the old joke:

What's the sound a woman makes when she's having fun in bed?

I didn't figure you'd know.
16 posted on 01/06/2003 6:54:41 PM PST by Nick Danger
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To: AM2000
I can't drive 55! :-)
17 posted on 01/06/2003 6:54:58 PM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: friendly
90 seconds elapse before he stops.

Well, if he's 17 and having his first experience, it should have only taken 5 seconds. Then again, I'm reminded of the complaint to police that a woman listened 90 minutes to "an obscene phone call" before hanging up and calling the police.

FMCDH

18 posted on 01/06/2003 6:55:46 PM PST by nothingnew
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To: friendly
It isn't just you. And I'm female. This is totally ridiculous. They might as well rule that if you gave a kid permission to practice the 50 yard dash on your property, then yell out just when s/he's gotten up to maximum speed that you withdraw your permission, and s/he continues for several more yards, that the kid is guilty of trespassing. Onwards to the U.S. Supreme Court, where hopefully some sanity still resides.
19 posted on 01/06/2003 6:56:16 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: San Jacinto
So... Does this mean that if the boy has an orgasam and the girl insists that he continue for a little while, she is guilty of rape?
20 posted on 01/06/2003 6:57:05 PM PST by babygene
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To: Texas Eagle
Serves him right

Reverse the situation.

The boy told the girl to stop, and she didn't.

Is it still rape and does she deserves the six months?

21 posted on 01/06/2003 6:58:04 PM PST by JZoback
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To: Ipse Dixit
The sexually charged atmosphere we got going nowadays - no need to go into all the ways, but fr'instance sexually explicit movies, music, clothes that only professional ladies used to wear now on 13 yr olds, etc - encourage this kind of "rape". Teenage girls are sex-educated into thinking that they should "put out" for any guy, and the guys expect it. There's a lot to be said for modesty in behavior and outlook. It used to protect girls - and boys.
22 posted on 01/06/2003 6:58:14 PM PST by First Amendment
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To: RCW2001
So, was HE not a victim of statutory rape?
23 posted on 01/06/2003 6:59:19 PM PST by Mark
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To: JZoback
Maybe the girl was in pain. Maybe she realized they weren't using birth control. Maybe she 'consented' at first due to a fear of the boy. Under any of these scenarios, a minute and a half is a very long time and it's a very long time for him to be 'doing his thing' knowing the girl told him to stop.....that is rape.
24 posted on 01/06/2003 7:00:03 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Born in a Rage
The justice understands what happens during sexual congress. It is not a debating society or a telegraph station receiving dispassioned messages. The justice understands that language requires context to be taken into account in order to grasp what's going on .
26 posted on 01/06/2003 7:03:37 PM PST by ontos-on
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To: JZoback
Reverse the situation.
The boy told the girl to stop, and she didn't.
Is it still rape and does she deserves the six months?

You must be kidding me.

27 posted on 01/06/2003 7:05:17 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: nothingnew
90 seconds elapse before he stops. Well, if he's 17 and having his first experience, it should have only taken 5 seconds.

LOL.

28 posted on 01/06/2003 7:05:56 PM PST by friendly
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: ontos-on
The radical feminists insist on pretending that this situation occurs in a vacuum. That is they denude it of human reality. It is how they insist on being willfully blind an ddeaf to the complex involvement of the woman ( playing a supposedly passive, innocent role while also playing the role of temptress, and inviting conquest ON ACCOUNT OF HER PROTESTS.) This is the human reality. IT IS WHY THIS, NOW SHE SAYS NOOOOOOO STUFF SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO ENTER INTO A CRIMINAL SPHERE.
30 posted on 01/06/2003 7:09:23 PM PST by ontos-on
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To: ontos-on
The justice understands what happens during sexual congress. It is not a debating society or a telegraph station receiving dispassioned messages. The justice understands that language requires context to be taken into account in order to grasp what's going on .

I have no doubt that the girl was also trying to push the boy off of her while she told him she needed to go home. There's your context...

31 posted on 01/06/2003 7:10:41 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: AM2000
60 mph is 88 feet per second. Assuming a 6" pee pee it should take him 176 seconds to stop. The fact that he stopped in 90 seconds should have been a mitigating factor or....maybe he was pee pee challenged!
32 posted on 01/06/2003 7:11:24 PM PST by Young Werther
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To: Texas Eagle; JZoback
You must be kidding me.

I don't think he is. And I'm interested in the answer also. But I would add the complication that the boy never actually said stop, he only said "I need to go to football practice". Well......?
33 posted on 01/06/2003 7:11:59 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Born in a Rage
...knowing the girl told him to stop.....that is rape.

She apparently said no such thing. Perhaps if she wanted him to stop, she could have told him explicitly to STOP! By her own admission, she used ambiguous language....I should go home.....or I should leave.

The law has convicted a 17 year old boy of a serious felony and branded him as a sex offender for life for having sex with a girl who gave her permission and then during the act said "I should go home."

We now live an Alice in Wonderland existence where common sense and logic have little application. All events are viewed through the looking glass of Political Correctness which must be acheived at all costs, as it is all that matters.

34 posted on 01/06/2003 7:12:40 PM PST by San Jacinto
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To: Nick Danger
In a moment of passion, any hesitation between the verbs, "Don't...Stop!" could really be confusing.

Does one:
(a)proceed with caution ?
(b)dismount immediately ?
(c)ask for clarification ?

35 posted on 01/06/2003 7:13:25 PM PST by Dallas
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To: Born in a Rage
'doing his thing' knowing the girl told him to stop.....that is rape.

The key point being that she "told him to stop" which it appears she did not. She said something about maybe I should possibly be going home maybe or something like that.
36 posted on 01/06/2003 7:13:41 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: friendly
LOL.

You been there too, eh? Twas a long time ago fer me.

BWAHAHAHA!

FMCDH

37 posted on 01/06/2003 7:15:20 PM PST by nothingnew
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To: GovernmentShrinker
They might as well rule that if you gave a kid permission to practice the 50 yard dash on your property, then yell out just when s/he's gotten up to maximum speed that you withdraw your permission, and s/he continues for several more yards, that the kid is guilty of trespassing.

Actually not even withdrawing your permission, just suggesting that maybe you don't possibly perhaps want someone running on your property....maybe.....hypothetically.
38 posted on 01/06/2003 7:15:52 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Born in a Rage
Now let's hear the testimony of the boy telling the court that he is hard of hearing-- the political correct mantra is that the disability backers need to focus on their input... he might be a victim here. Statutory rape is a serious charge against her.
39 posted on 01/06/2003 7:17:28 PM PST by Mark
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To: friendly
"completely innocent"

Yes, completely innocent in my opinion.

40 posted on 01/06/2003 7:20:40 PM PST by Mariner
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To: San Jacinto
Perhaps if she wanted him to stop, she could have told him explicitly to STOP!

This attempt at exploiting the semantics in such a situation is feeble. Am I to believe that if a murderer claims that his victim didn't say "stop" before he killed him, he 'only' said "you better get out of my house" that he would be innocent of his crime? Rape is a crime with a long history of people trying to 'blame' the victim.

41 posted on 01/06/2003 7:21:02 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: Arkinsaw
The answer is: Guys are bigger and stronger than girls (Janet Reno nothwithstanding) and should be held to a higher account.

Besides, how could a girl FORCE a guy to....you know....I mean, how wimpy must a guy be.

42 posted on 01/06/2003 7:21:31 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: Born in a Rage
And maybe none of that happened and she just changed her mind in the middle of INTERCOURSE. A guy with a girl who originally consented and they were going at it--90 seconds is not a long time. Who would take anyone seriously if you are in the middle of the sex act? Did he even understand what she was saying on the verge of a climax? I've got to get home, may not mean, I don't really want to have sex anymore, but I have to get home before my parents find out I snuck out. Not really a protest of the actual sex, but the consequences of sneaking out or being out late. I wonder why it's so easy for you to take what the girl says as fact vs. what the boy says. I can remember being a teenager and these on again, off again type of romances which included sexual intercourse. Girls can be very viscious and vengeful and manipulative, particularly emotionally(which imo means they could play a legal angle to the hilt) and are inclined, in my experience, to use manipulative tactics(like lying) to get themselves out of trouble. BTW, I am female, but I don't have the faith in womankind telling the truth as much as you do.
43 posted on 01/06/2003 7:23:07 PM PST by glory
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To: MySteadySystematicDecline
Didn't William Jefferson Blythe Clinton show the yutes how it needs to be handled ....like with Monica?
44 posted on 01/06/2003 7:23:25 PM PST by Mark
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To: Nick Danger
What's the sound a woman makes when she's having fun in bed?

The real answer is, "Why does it matter?"

45 posted on 01/06/2003 7:25:20 PM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: glory
A guy with a girl who originally consented and they were going at it--90 seconds is not a long time.

Lets imagine a girl who is a virgin and consents to have sex with her boyfriend.....she is scared and finds she is uncomfortable. She tells her boyfriend to 'stop' or 'that's enough, I need to go home now' or whatever. He should cease what he is doing immediately, it doesn't mean he should continue for another 15 seconds, 90 seconds or 5 minutes.

46 posted on 01/06/2003 7:31:13 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: Born in a Rage
You would like to believe it was as you say, if you take it that he was the insistent aggressor and she was yelling and screqaming and pushing him away. Create the scene that way if you want. But you are willfully inisisting on applying what you must know about human nature ---even your own experience. Why it is that you have placed yourself in that place, is itself interesting. Don't you have exeperience about how people, men and women, do complex things and then may wish it to be a certian way after the fact. Why should we credit the protesting woman after the fact. This is the alleged "date rape" scenario. She apparently entered into a certain sexual relation witht person, when it "goes beyond what I hoped it to be, maybe hwat I hoped before the event or maybe what I no hope after the event since I now have regrets and now "believe" that he isnisted on it happening.

Do you really think a just and fair legal fact-finding and analysis can be applied to such a situation?

47 posted on 01/06/2003 7:32:48 PM PST by ontos-on
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To: Born in a Rage
Rape and murder are not the same-poor example. How do you factore into your little rape scenario the fact that this girl initially gave her permission and I'm assuming defrocked, layed beneath this boy, and likely even participated in MOST of the sexual intercourse or the women who actually said no without ambiguity and were ignored in the most violent of ways. IMO, those are mitigating circumstances and your idea(and the justices) that this is a rape is a slap in the face to women forced in back ally at knifepoint and forced to have intercourse. The fact you can equate the two is morally bankrupt.
48 posted on 01/06/2003 7:33:39 PM PST by glory
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To: Born in a Rage
Read it again. She never told him to stop. She said, "I should be going now."

By the court's logic, if they were driving around in his car, and she said the same thing, he would be guilty of kidnapping if he took ninety seconds before turning around and heading toward her house.

49 posted on 01/06/2003 7:33:41 PM PST by per loin
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To: Born in a Rage
I must be missing something. Didn't she say, "I need to be going" or something to that effect? I don't think she ever said "stop" or something definitive like that.

It has now been legislated that men are supposed to be able to read women's minds.
50 posted on 01/06/2003 7:34:49 PM PST by M. Peach
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