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Observation on TPS damage on Orbiter
NASA photos | 2-3-03 | BoneMccoy

Posted on 02/04/2003 1:34:19 AM PST by bonesmccoy

In recent days the popular media has been focusing their attention on an impact event during the launch of STS-107. The impact of External Tank insulation and/or ice with the Orbiter during ascent was initially judged by NASA to be unlikely to cause loss of the vehicle. Obviously, loss of the integrity of the orbiter Thermal Protection System occured in some manner. When Freepers posted the reports of these impacts on the site, I initially discounted the hypothesis. Orbiters had sustained multiple impacts in the past. However, the size of the plume in the last photo gives me pause.

I'd like to offer to FR a few observations on the photos.

1. In this image an object approximately 2-3 feet appears to be between the orbiter and the ET.

2. In this image the object appears to have rotated relative to both the camera and the orbiter. The change in image luminosity could also be due to a change in reflected light from the object. Nevertheless, it suggests that the object is tumbling and nearing the orbiter's leading edge.

It occurs to me that one may be able to estimate the size of the object and make an educated guess regarding the possible mass of the object. Using the data in the video, one can calculate the relative velocity of the object to the orbiter wing. Creating a test scenario is then possible. One can manufacture a test article and fire ET insulation at the right velocity to evaluate impact damage on the test article.

OV-101's port wing could be used as a test stand with RCC and tile attached to mimic the OV-102 design.

The color of the object seems inconsistent with ET insulation. One can judge the ET color by looking at the ET in the still frame. The color of the object seems more consistent with ice or ice covered ET insulation. Even when accounting for variant color hue/saturation in the video, the object clearly has a different color characteristic from ET insulation. If it is ice laden insulation, the mass of the object would be significantly different from ET insulation alone. Since the velocity of the object is constant in a comparison equation, estimating the mass of the object becomes paramount to understanding the kinetic energy involved in the impact with the TPS.

3. In this image the debris impact creates a plume. My observation is that if the plume was composed primarily of ET insulation, the plume should have the color characteristics of ET insulation. This plume has a white color.

Unfortunately, ET insulation is orange/brown in color.

In addition, if the relative density of the ET insulation is known, one can quantify the colorimetric properties of the plume to disintegrating ET insulation upon impact.

Using the test article experiment model, engineers should fire at the same velocity an estimated mass of ET insulation (similar to the object seen in the still frame) at the test article. The plume should be measured colorimetrically. By comparing this experimental plume to the photographic evidence from the launch, one may be able to quantify the amount of ET insulation in the photograph above.

4. In this photo, the plume spreads from the aft of the orbiter's port wing. This plume does not appear to be the color of ET insulation. It appears to be white.

This white color could be the color of ice particles at high altitude.

On the other hand, the composition of TPS tiles under the orbiter wings is primarily a low-density silica.

In the photo above, you can see a cross section of orbiter TPS tile. The black color of the tile is merely a coating. The interior of the tile is a white, low-density, silica ceramic.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Editorial; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: columbiaaccident; nasa; shuttle; sts; sts107
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To: XBob; John Jamieson; snopercod; bonesmccoy; Thud; Budge; wirestripper; Lawdoc; manna; ...

CBS NEWS STATUS REPORT


3,721 posted on 05/06/2003 7:31:05 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional.)
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To: brityank
Two points:

They are still saying a large block of foam broke off -- ignoring the impact and position of the smaller preceding foam chunk.

The fixation on the RCC assembly, and ignoring a carrier panel (either upper or [to my mind less likely] lower) loss that would meet the approximate entry hole determination. I think that a lower panel would have allowed a quicker cutting into the wing in a shorter time than an upper panel and the turbulent entry.

3,722 posted on 05/06/2003 7:55:21 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional.)
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To: XBob
Your comparison of toilet seat costs for a local kybo and the orbiter middeck are silly. Surely you do not seriously compare the design issues for capturing human waste in zero-g vs. in one g.

Or am I missing the point again?
3,723 posted on 05/06/2003 8:09:46 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
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To: Budge
Houston may have been the first city mentioned from the moon, but it's the last damn city that I'd ever move to.

Agreed!
3,724 posted on 05/06/2003 8:13:07 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
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To: brityank
"We can make fairly good case of what we think the return-to-flight criteria should be with or without any positive knowledge or positive proof that the foam caused the accident," he said. "Because we're going to make return-to-flight recommendations that are designed to enhance the safety of the orbiter in every way we find that it needs to be enhanced.

Crap! They saw it with their own damn eyes.

So now they are going to make debris proof RCC panels??????? They will end up in a total re-design and this bird will never fly again.

But......This is what I expected.

This is not what should be done.

Fix the foam, fly the bird is too damn simple of an explanation.

Screw it! (or screw them)

3,725 posted on 05/06/2003 8:16:26 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: brityank
From AP via Yahoo

Tile Damage Seen As Key in Shuttle Breach

HOUSTON -

Columbia accident investigators announced Tuesday they have concluded that damaged thermal tiles allowed superheated gases inside the space shuttle's left wing as it re-entered the atmosphere, leading to its destruction.

"We have a very good understanding of what happened," investigation board chairman Harold Gehman said at a news conference. "The orbiter (space shuttle) was returning with a pre-existing flaw in the wing.... The wing got heated from the inside."

However, Gehman said how the wing was damaged remains unproven, although a collision with foam insulation from the shuttle's external fuel tank during launch remains the most likely cause.

The shuttle came apart over Texas on Feb. 1 while streaking toward a planned landing at the Kennedy Space Center (news - web sites) in Florida. Seven astronauts were killed and the shuttle fleet was grounded while investigators looked for the cause of the accident.

The board for weeks was unwilling to take a firm position on what happened even as evidence mounted that a hole in the left wing was at the heart of the disaster. Even Tuesday, the board called its conclusions a "working scenario."

But Gehman said "we made sure that there were no facts that contradicted our scenario."

"We now know enough," he said. "We're at the point where we should focus our efforts."

He said the board will be able to make a broad range of recommendations this summer to make the shuttle program safer.

Gehman said the board may never be able to prove the wing was damaged by the foam insulation, though technicians next month will test that idea by firing chunks of the material at thermal tiles. But Gehman said NASA (news - web sites) already knows peeling insulation is a problem that must be fixed before the shuttle fleet flies again.

Also among the board's conclusions:

_As Columbia was launched Jan. 16, photos showed that the leading edge of the left wing was struck by a large piece of foam insulation. There was no indication while the craft was in orbit that the wing had sustained serious damage.

_On the shuttle's second day in orbit, Air Force radar detected an object drifting free of Columbia. Later analysis suggests, but does not prove, that the object was either a piece of reinforced carbon tile or a seal from the leading edge of the wing. It could have been broken by the foam during launch and then shaken free during a maneuver by Columbia.

_When Columbia re-entered the atmosphere on Feb. 1, gases heated to several thousand degrees entered a hole in the wing and melted metal struts and wiring.

_Sensors inside the wing detected rising temperatures within five minutes after the craft began its descent. Within six minutes, the sensors stopped sending data, suggesting wires were melting. In 15 minutes, all communication with Columbia ceased. Observers on the ground, from California to Texas, reported seeing burning debris falling.

_Reinforced carbon panels from the leading edge of left wing, numbers 8 and 9, were eroded by extreme heat. Other pieces from the wing were splashed with molten aluminum, copper, nickel and other metals, indicating extreme heat.

Gehman said there is a "high level of agreement" on the scenario among board members, but that "we reserve the right to change any part of it" if new facts surface.

3,726 posted on 05/06/2003 8:23:11 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi .. Support FRee Republic)
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To: brityank
I just watched the Panels recap and earlier in the day I caught bits and pieces of the various sub groups testimony. So far I have missed the enhanced video of the foam strike but I may catch it yet. Somewhere I saw mention of 3 pieces of foam breaking off the bipod area. Gehman touched on many aspects of NASA that have been raised here.
3,727 posted on 05/06/2003 9:21:19 PM PDT by tubebender (?)
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To: leadpenny
The NASA testimony today brought back to mind the timeline that played out on your live shuttle reentry thread on 2/1/03. I hope you can catch a rerun of the meeting...
3,728 posted on 05/06/2003 9:25:21 PM PDT by tubebender (?)
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To: bonesmccoy
3723-"Or am I missing the point again?

===

yes, you are missing the point again. The orbiter toilet cost $12 million, seat included. I have no idea how many feet thick the design specifications were.

However, the philosophy lead to a specication for a standard toilet seat in a maintence shop to grow to 1 1/2 inches thick, forcing toilet seat suppliers to read, comprehent, and comply with hundreds of pages of specifications for a normal toilet seat, forcing the price to go from probably $6 to $600, for a regular toilet seat.

People were wondering why things cost so much, and the 'CULTURE' of even entertaining an 1 1/2 inch specification for a standaRD TOILET SEAT is the utterly ridiculous cause.
3,729 posted on 05/07/2003 2:40:57 AM PDT by XBob
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To: wirestripper; bonesmccoy
3725 - "Crap! They saw it with their own damn eyes.
...
Fix the foam, fly the bird is too damn simple of an explanation. "

===
This is exactly the problem I have been arguing with bones. The foam can't be the problem, otherwise, the management would be blamed for not fixing it for years.

The NASA osterich culture strikes again, until something else falls on our heads.

My scenario -
1. No definable 'cause' will be found
2. No the foam will not be fixed.
3. No major engineering 'f_ckups' will be corrected.
4. The shuttle will fly again, unfixed, until another or perhaps the same problem, causes another thing to fall out of the sky.

Three things left to fall out of the sky - the space station and 2 orbiters. (got to save one orbiter for the smithsonian)
3,730 posted on 05/07/2003 3:00:57 AM PDT by XBob
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To: NormsRevenge
3726 - Great catch:

"But Gehman said "we made sure that there were no facts that contradicted our scenario."

ROTFL
3,731 posted on 05/07/2003 3:08:57 AM PDT by XBob
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To: tubebender
Thanks for the heads-up. Yesterday's session is on C-SPAN2 now. I must have missed the first part. They are in question time.
3,732 posted on 05/07/2003 3:31:53 AM PDT by leadpenny
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To: brityank
Thanks for posting the Harwood Report.

Under the scenario developed by NASA and the CAIB, the mystery object could be either the T-seal between RCC panels 8 and 9 or a large section of the lower portions of the RCC panels themselves.

Curious, since at last week's CAIB press conference they indicated that the breach had to be inboard of that particular T-Seal based upon sensor failure times.

3,733 posted on 05/07/2003 4:59:41 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: snopercod
Curious, since at last week's CAIB press conference they indicated that the breach had to be inboard of that particular T-Seal based upon sensor failure times.

The maroons are trying to make the scenario fit the floating piece of unknown crap.

What if the unknown crap is just that! (unknown crap)

I love it when a plan comes together. By the time they get done with this, there will be a slew of impossible recommendations and as X-bob said earlier, the foam problem will be addressed by stressing the adhesion importance.

But, I differ with him about the fact that the shuttle will not be touched and returned to flight. I see a total redesign on the RCC coming out of this. (You could shoot the thing with a high powered rifle before, how much better can it get)

3,734 posted on 05/07/2003 7:31:08 AM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: wirestripper
I see a total redesign on the RCC coming out of this.

That's why we need to know what kind of modification was done to Columbia's leading edge at Palmdale in 1999, and more importantly, why it needed to be done. What is NASA covering up?

3,735 posted on 05/07/2003 8:48:24 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: snopercod
I understand they lightened the craft substantially during the refit. Those mods are important indeed.

As to the floater, they are not following the rules of systematic troubleshooting. The floater is an anomaly that may or may not factor into the demise of the shuttle. It should not be given much weight in the scenario due to the total lack of identification of the item.

It could just as well be a scrap piece of construction material that a tech was using to kneel on during the installation of the lab. That expanded metal grating is a real pain on the knees. Lets say he went to lunch and slid it under a wire bundle. let's say he got re-assigned and never returned to the area to retrieve it. Let's say that during the rough turbulence the item moved out of the hiding place and floated out sometime after the cargo doors were opened.

They have weighted it as connected to the scenario when it may not be at all related.

3,736 posted on 05/07/2003 9:19:10 AM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: wirestripper
3734 - "I see a total redesign on the RCC coming out of this."

===

Maybe in about 5 years. They want to be flying in 6 more months.
3,737 posted on 05/07/2003 2:01:51 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
Maybe in about 5 years. They want to be flying in 6 more months

I was actually being sarcastic when I said that.

I don't think the RCC is in any way a problem, except for the silicon dioxide coating. I believe they can improve on that a bit.

No, the reason I said that was that they appear to be finding fault with things that are not directly related. things that perhaps could be improved but at great cost in time.

Time...........................There is none to spare and they appear to be taking a shotgun approach that will not get the shuttle flying in time.

I am so disappointed with the progress of the program. If it is not money, then it is lengthy accident investigations that really are not getting to the root of the problems. (like the 0 ring thing) So, much time lost for such a small change. They could have shaved many months off that layover.

This time, they already knew they had a foam problem, but the big one did not happen and now it has. They should be done with this and recommending a total revamp at Michoud.

No, these shuttles will not be flying unless someone steps in and sets them a goal and a deadline. (which will not happen)

I don't know how this will turn out, but I have little faith in the process. I fear the shuttle may not fly for a year or perhaps more. This is what I fear.

3,738 posted on 05/07/2003 6:53:12 PM PDT by Cold Heat (Negotiate!! .............(((Blam!.)))........... "Now who else wants to negotiate?")
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To: snopercod
I thought you said Harwood was looking into this?

I've been waiting for his comments.

Where is Covault?
3,739 posted on 05/07/2003 10:10:41 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
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To: wirestripper; snopercod; XBob; All
The maroons are trying to make the scenario fit the floating piece of unknown crap.

Sure does seem that way!

Last week it was very clear that Panel 8-9 was too far outboard to be the site of the initial breech.

This week, the CAIB has returned to Panel 8-9 and is making sounds like they're getting tired and want to end the investigation PRIOR TO explaining the delamination of the ET insulation.

This is GD stupid!

Regretably, I'm losing confidence in the CAIB. After spending about three hours a week participating in this historic thread, I am reaching the conclusion that the chairman of the CAIB is no engineer and does not belong in charge of a major engineering effort like the CAIB investigation.

While the Admiral may have the bars to investigate the USS Cole attack, he is showing signs of lacking the experience required to fully evaluate the science and engineering involved with the Columbia loss.

The men in this thread with experience in the program are AHEAD OF CAIB and have consistently demonstrated their expertise in ADVANCE OF CAIB activity.

While the Admiral may not comprehend the utility of impact testing, the FAA has done impact testing on aircraft components for decades. Perhaps the US NAVY might consider similar tests with their aircraft.

If Gehman makes such a ludicrous report that our team can rip it to shreds, he didn't do anyone a favor and just wasted millions of tax dollars and six months of time.

Someone at CAIB needs to report the following:

1. NASA IS TO FIX THE FOAM

2. NASA IS TO IMPACT TEST THE RCC AND LEADING EDGE SYSTEMS IN THE CONFIGURATION OF THE REMAINING THREE ORBITERS

3. THE US CONGRESS NEEDS TO FUND A REPLACEMENT FOR THE STS

3,740 posted on 05/07/2003 10:19:42 PM PDT by bonesmccoy (Defeat the terrorists... Vaccinate!)
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