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Video shows shuttle may have shed debris over Arizona - check out this video taken by amateurs
The Dallas Morning News ^ | February 3, 2003 | By BYRON HARRIS / WFAA-TV

Posted on 02/04/2003 2:46:25 AM PST by MeekOneGOP

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Check out the video link. Clearly, a piece fell off. Good video:

http://www.wfaa.com/watchvideo/index.jsp?SID=3683978

1 posted on 02/04/2003 2:46:26 AM PST by MeekOneGOP
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To: Alamo-Girl; onyx; SpookBrat; Republican Wildcat; Howlin; Fred Mertz; dixiechick2000; SusanUSA; ...
Here is the link if you want to see the video taken over Arizona:

http://www.wfaa.com/watchvideo/index.jsp?SID=3683978


Amateur tape shows what appears to be an object
breaking off Columbia over Arizona.



Please let me know if you want ON or OFF my General Interest ping list!. . .don't be shy.

2 posted on 02/04/2003 2:55:33 AM PST by MeekOneGOP (9 out of 10 Republicans agree: Bush IS a Genius !!)
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To: MeeknMing
Oh my.That is something,particularly their shocked observations.
3 posted on 02/04/2003 2:57:39 AM PST by John W
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To: MeeknMing
Nice find.
4 posted on 02/04/2003 2:59:02 AM PST by MonroeDNA (What's the frequency, Kenneth?)
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To: MeeknMing
There is now dramatic new evidence that the shuttle Columbia may have been in trouble before it disintegrated over Texas.

When you're moving at Mach 18, a couple of state lines is nothing.

5 posted on 02/04/2003 3:08:34 AM PST by Timesink
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To: MeeknMing
WOW!!!!
6 posted on 02/04/2003 3:12:02 AM PST by Mo1 (I Hate The Party of Bill Clinton)
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To: MeeknMing
Late Sunday night (or early Monday morning), I drove to the local post office to drop some bills in the mailbox. The radio was on a local station that carries the Coast to Coast Show. Richard Hoagland claimed that two astronomers (one from Australia) said they could see bits of debris falling off when the shuttle entered the atmoshpere over California. While most of that show (which I rarely listen to) belongs in the garbage, occasionally they do discuss real information. I don't know if it's true, but it certainly sounded credible to me. If so, I would assume they have already reported their observations to NASA.
7 posted on 02/04/2003 3:18:31 AM PST by Lion's Cub
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To: MeeknMing
It's quite apparent there's something appearing to come from the shuttle, but whether variations like that are normal I certainly can't say. Any commentary a layman would have on any video I think would be sheer speculation.
8 posted on 02/04/2003 3:23:09 AM PST by visualops
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To: MeeknMing; TigersEye
Thanks, MnM. Tiger bump.
9 posted on 02/04/2003 3:32:09 AM PST by .30Carbine
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To: Lion's Cub
The San Fran Chronicle had the story about the Aussie astronomer. Seemingly he has some pics of some weird plasma/electrical discharge near the shuttle as it passed over California.
10 posted on 02/04/2003 3:42:28 AM PST by maquiladora
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To: visualops
I'm no expert, but I've seen the shuttle come in early in the pre-dawn hours over Texas before...it is a marvelous sight, but there's no secondary objects or things dropping from it. A big ball of light with a contrail.

There was a small cross-section of tile just behind my church (in Kerens), and a nondescript metal chunk driven into the ground at the A of G a block away.

Prayers and condolences to the astronauts and their families.

11 posted on 02/04/2003 4:08:11 AM PST by Churchjack
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To: maquiladora
Seemingly he has some pics of some weird plasma/electrical discharge near the shuttle as it passed over California.

I'll wait for a bit more verification before I buy into an act of war :)

However, MSNBC, according to a poster on another thread, did confirm that there was an American astronomer who saw debris coming off over California. If the poster heard correctly, that ought to show up at their website today.

12 posted on 02/04/2003 4:15:30 AM PST by Lion's Cub
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To: Lion's Cub
According to Brian Ross, whom I just saw on GMA there are pics of the orbiter that were taken by the AF while it was up, though not at NASA's request apparently. NASA didn't ask for the photos until after whatever happened happened, and has placed a gag order on discussion of the pics' contents.
13 posted on 02/04/2003 4:18:00 AM PST by mewzilla
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To: MeeknMing; Pete-R-Bilt
wow.
14 posted on 02/04/2003 4:18:33 AM PST by glock rocks (God bless America)
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To: mewzilla
If these are pictures while in orbit,that show unsurvivable damage,then what?
15 posted on 02/04/2003 4:20:55 AM PST by John W
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To: Lion's Cub
I was the poster, Imus was interviewing a very seasoned NBC space reporter who called the mans story absolutely true.

Sorry, I can't recall his name, it had a wierd spelling.

Checking the NBC site now.

16 posted on 02/04/2003 4:21:27 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Howlin
Know you are interested, and that you have a sizable 'ping' list.
17 posted on 02/04/2003 4:27:52 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: MeeknMing
Anyone know if it exists anywhere in non-REAL format? I dumped REAL for Windoze Media Player 7.
18 posted on 02/04/2003 4:28:06 AM PST by djf
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To: djf
I dumped real as well, it kept doing stuff and calling home to momma. I did not like it's invasive controlling nature and tossed it.
19 posted on 02/04/2003 4:32:35 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: MeeknMing
Thanks.
20 posted on 02/04/2003 4:33:08 AM PST by lonestar ((Nelson Mandela has a thinking problem))
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To: wirestripper
Ive been watching the NASA conferences with MP71. Never had a single "buffering....", not once was there an audio dropout.
21 posted on 02/04/2003 4:39:50 AM PST by djf
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To: mewzilla
It's interesting that they placed a gag on discussion. Maybe there was something experimental, either on or in the craft, that is a secret--that they think might have contributed to whatever happened.
22 posted on 02/04/2003 4:42:31 AM PST by Lion's Cub
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To: MeeknMing
Thanks for the ping Meek. Interesting stuff, seems like a significant clue. At least to a layman like myself. Hopefully this (and other amateur shots/video) will provide NASA with some real good clues as to what transpired.
23 posted on 02/04/2003 4:44:13 AM PST by LoneGOPinCT (From the Land of Liberalty)
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To: djf
Anyone know if it exists anywhere in non-REAL format? I dumped REAL for Windoze Media Player 7.

There was a link in a thread yesterday that was in Media Player format so I couldn't view it. I'll see if I can find it, otherwise try scanning some of the threads (it may have been in the big 3000+ post one). I'm sure someone here will beat me to it anyways.

24 posted on 02/04/2003 4:47:20 AM PST by LoneGOPinCT (From the Land of Liberalty)
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To: John W; MonroeDNA; Timesink; Mo1; Lion's Cub; visualops; .30Carbine; maquiladora; mewzilla; ...
Here is a very good view of the incident of suspected damage to the tiles during liftoff, fyi:

Very close-up, slo-mo of the Columbia launch debris

It's a very friendly htm file, btw.
Sorry I don't have a windows media version of the amateurs video...

25 posted on 02/04/2003 4:48:53 AM PST by MeekOneGOP (9 out of 10 Republicans agree: Bush IS a Genius !!)
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To: mewzilla; DoughtyOne
...pics of the orbiter that were taken by the AF while it was up

Hmmmm...... the question "couldn't they have taken a photo of Columbia while it was in orbit" came up early in this tragedy. Several posters derided anyone who brought that subject up.

26 posted on 02/04/2003 4:52:57 AM PST by csvset
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To: MeeknMing
For those that do not have REAL, MSNBC has run the best footage I have seen this morning, and I thought I saw it all. It is real close and shows the details. Even the redish rusty color of the dust as it exits and there was a piece of insulation that was not totally destroyed.

Looks like it hit about the middle of the wing. They ran it about three times so far on IMUS>

27 posted on 02/04/2003 4:59:30 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: csvset
News people asked that question. The answer was that the detail would not be helpful to assess the damage.
28 posted on 02/04/2003 5:02:00 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: LoneGOPinCT
Local tv is reporting they have found debris in Arizona. If they find tiles, they'll have a better idea of the first point of failure.
29 posted on 02/04/2003 5:03:25 AM PST by djf
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To: djf
The debris would have to be tiles or there is a lot more to this breakup.

If it is a access door etc. The insulation likely did not totally cause this.

30 posted on 02/04/2003 5:08:12 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: wirestripper
I'd hate to see another multi-year suspension of flights. I think they need to address the tile-fix-in-orbit problem, and do something about the insulation, but I think the remaining shuttles are very spaceworthy now.

Face it, few people drive cars older than Columbia was.
31 posted on 02/04/2003 5:13:53 AM PST by djf
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To: wirestripper
It has been my contention, that the trouble indeed started in CA or earlier and there should be a small debris field across the western states, prior to Dallas and the imminent explosion.
The CA astronomer is no kook and knew what he was seeing.
As far as the damage, what can they do?
If they were indeed damaged, all they could do was attempt to come home.
That was the only option.
32 posted on 02/04/2003 5:17:04 AM PST by dtel (Texas Longhorn cattle for sale at all times. We don't rent pigs)
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To: djf
I have discovered a few interesting things about Columbia.

It was the oldest f course but was also the most problem ridden. The left wing heating and left side heating problems are mentioned early in the program. Special equipment and cameras were once installed to observe and correct it.

Also, the tile arrangement was different on the trailing edges of the wings.

33 posted on 02/04/2003 5:20:11 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: dtel
That was the only option

I agree. Even if they suspected damage by the insulation, they have about three and a half minutes to make the abort call. Re-entry was a certainty and the die was cast.

34 posted on 02/04/2003 5:24:01 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: wirestripper
There was a still photo broadcast yesterday that showed damage on a previous flight, where it had lost a number of tiles. Burned about an 8-12 inch hole into the infrastructure. Don't know if it was Columbia or not.
35 posted on 02/04/2003 5:27:36 AM PST by djf
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To: MeeknMing
The video at that link seems to have been removed. There are no links or pics on that page. Odd.
36 posted on 02/04/2003 5:28:27 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts ()
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To: MeeknMing
Great link - thanks.
37 posted on 02/04/2003 5:29:03 AM PST by lodwick (Republicans for Sharpton)
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To: wirestripper
I have to wonder what the quality of any pics the AF took was? Why were they taking pics and what in particular where they photgraphing? Do they take pics of all space shuttle flights? If so, who requires them or requested them to? Can the public see these pics?

For some reason, I wouldn't think the AF would take low quality pics, what would the purpose of that be ?

These are questions I'd like someone to ask the folks at NASA.

38 posted on 02/04/2003 5:31:48 AM PST by csvset
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To: djf
I believe that was ST86. It had about 108 damaged tiles but still landed. This is when they discovered the insulation problem. They have had the crew photograph the tank on separation ever since.

They changed the tank design shorty after to the light tanke. This tank that they flew the other day was one of two remaining heavy tanks in inventory.

It seems to me that many things may have contributed to the shuttles demise. Not just the insulation drop.

39 posted on 02/04/2003 5:34:02 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: csvset; wirestripper
I would also like to know what efforts are being made out west to identify and retrieve debris.
It seems anything found out west would shed greater light on what failed first.
By the time it got in my neck of the woods it had already exploded and was in pieces.
40 posted on 02/04/2003 5:36:15 AM PST by dtel (Texas Longhorn cattle for sale at all times. We don't rent pigs)
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To: csvset
The problem as explained was the two dimentional view. A damaged tile that was 5 inches thick would look the same as one that had only a quarter inch remaining.
41 posted on 02/04/2003 5:40:27 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
The video at that link seems to have been removed. There are no links or pics on that page. Odd.

I checked it again, and it is working now. Perhaps server problems at the time you tried to view it?...

42 posted on 02/04/2003 5:46:09 AM PST by MeekOneGOP (9 out of 10 Republicans agree: Bush IS a Genius !!)
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To: dtel
I'm sure we've all seen the (Doppler?), radar shot of the debris field as it settled over Texas. Would it be possible, feasible or worthwhile to go back and check similar weather radar scans starting out west, looking for any signs of debris falling off?

I realize that the radar in Texas was reflecting off of thousands of parts which is why it was so readily visable.

43 posted on 02/04/2003 5:48:46 AM PST by csvset
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To: csvset
I think it would be worth a try.
Satellite photos would also be useful, one would think.
I'm not so quick to dismiss the apartment fire in Dallas, that started just before the shuttle came overhead, anymore either.
You also have to think the smaller pieces over the western states may have burned up before hitting earth.
44 posted on 02/04/2003 5:55:00 AM PST by dtel (Texas Longhorn cattle for sale at all times. We don't rent pigs)
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To: dtel
I have not followed the entire discussion. Is it really true there was no alternative at all to attempting re-entry with the crew on board?

Not enough fuel to reach the ISS?

No means of transferring crew without the docking adapter in the cargo bay?

It seems like a lousy choice, and it almost seems like NASA collectively closed their eyes and decided to hope. They had two weeks to diagnose a problem. They probably had technical means to do it in some way, using either ground-based imaging, satellite imaging, or the ISS.

If they found damage, they would have to improvise like hell to do something with that knowledge, with no guarantee of success.

I would prefer to know how bad my situation is. NASA may have made a different choice re the shuttle. Now they will be judged with hindsight. I wonder if that is the better outcome.
45 posted on 02/04/2003 6:09:42 AM PST by eno_
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To: eno_
It is my understanding there was not enough fuel to reach the ISS.
They were in the wrong orbit, for another matter.
The fact is these guys went up via a very large container of highly flammable fuel.
They are fully aware of the risks inherent in space exploration.
As far as fixing damage in space, there is no way, at this time to carry the appropriate materials. (20,000 different tiles)
There is no way, at this time, to remove and reinstall any damaged tiles in space, if they could carry the appropriate materials.
I would think the astronauts knew what their situation was, meaning I believe ground control talked with them, prior to re-entry.
They had two choices:
Fly around space until you expire.
Bring it home.
46 posted on 02/04/2003 6:27:35 AM PST by dtel (Texas Longhorn cattle for sale at all times. We don't rent pigs)
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To: dtel
You also have to think the smaller pieces over the western states may have burned up before hitting earth.

Tiles burn up? Someone made the same mistake a day or two ago and I let it slip on by. Early drop off of tiles would certainly survive and fall to earth even as early as California.

47 posted on 02/04/2003 6:38:23 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: djf
ABC this morning (I know, I know) had a guy on who showed the tiles - showed that they are actually stacked one on top of another and then on the "pad" that is glued to the frame. The design is so that if the tile is hit, the top half will break off without major damage to the "under" tile or frame. The dangers are that something could break off the under tile as well as the upper tile or could actually break off the "pad" and leave the bare frame open to the heat. The metal of the frame melts at 900 degrees in a 2000 degree environment - not good. (He said). There have been other shuttles in which both top and under tile came off and a "burn through" occurred but the key was WHERE that happened - not in a critical place before. Also, the video of the insulation foam indicates the tiles could have been struck near or next do the wheel well "door" - which, if it came off in flight - would be catastrophic. But he did not know if this is what happened. A key question obviously is what is that piece that separated in this early video.

One other mention was made by the ABC reporters that NASA does have film from satellites of the shuttle over but these have been "classified" and not released to the public.

48 posted on 02/04/2003 6:44:07 AM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: csvset
Thanks for the ping. What's interesting is that the normal config is shuttle bay exposed toward earth, tail forward. If these photos show a different config it says four things. They had to reconfig to take the photos. NASA's plausible denial of knowing photos were taken is bogus. NASA has been lying about their initial assessments of the damage from the insullation. NASA's overall trustworthyness has just plumeted to that of Bill Clinton.
49 posted on 02/04/2003 6:44:55 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: MeeknMing
Perhaps server problems at the time you tried to view it?...

Nope. I figured it out. I thought I had Real Player but remembered I removed that POS from my system a few weeks back.

All that shows to me is a set of frames with the little generic image icons with the circle, square and triangle in them. No biggie. I'm certainly not going to reload Real Player to show me something I already suspected...that Columbia was trailing debris from the moment it hit atmosphere and the crew was unaware until it was way too late. May God keep them close and protect their souls.


50 posted on 02/04/2003 6:48:20 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts ()
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