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Guarantee of a republican form of government
. ^ | 2/4/03 | Marcia H. Armstrong

Posted on 02/04/2003 11:59:39 AM PST by tpaine

Guarantee of a republican form of government

by Marcia H. Armstrong

I admit that I am among the post-Roosevelt public school-indoctrinated adults that were taught to use the word "democracy" to describe our form of government. So it initially surprised me when the same word was used by avowed socialists to taut their political wares. After some research, I found that the system my ancestors helped to create was a "republic," not a democracy. (Although democratic elements, such as the "initiative," have since crept into the system.)

A republic is representative government, where the power of government is delegated to a few elected citizens. These representatives serve for an established term of office. In our constitutional republic, the distribution of power and limits of authority granted are all set down in writing. Because representatives are elected, they are directly accountable to those who elected them. A republic allows the representative to focus on decisions that will serve the best interests of the community; but that will also protect all citizens in the security of their persons and property and the enjoyment of their rights.

The strength of a republic is to elect individuals of the highest character and spirit - those who can be trusted to make good decisions. One might think of a republic as sort of like having a designated driver. On the other hand, in a democracy, each individual directly exercises the power of government. Every citizen participates directly in making the decisions. For obvious reasons, a democracy works best when it is at the small-scale level, where only a few simple issues present themselves. Democracy is also called "majority rule." The best way to describe the detrimental effects of this is to envision two wolves and a sheep sitting down together to vote on what they want for dinner, (or two preservationists and a property owner deciding on how to manage the owner's private land.) Some of the problems with a democracy are:

(1) That the majority is mighty prone to make decisions swayed by the popular passion of the moment;

(2) That there is no one who can be individually held accountable for a decision or action;

(3) That those, who don't understand the issue and often will never be effected by the laws they make, are the ones that often make the law;

(4) That ballots take on proportions of the Encyclopedia Britannica; and (5) That laws and decisions tend to erode individual rights and private property.

Democracy sounds good, but in practice, beliefs held by the majority tend to morph into standards that are officially forced upon everyone as a leveler. This is accomplished either by social coercion ("political correctness,") or through a gazillion behavioral regulations Founders like James Madison, pointed to the will of the majority as the greatest potential threat for encroachment upon personal liberty:

             "Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is a real danger of oppression. In our Governments the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of its constituents." Now, when I now place my hand over my heart and recite the "Pledge of Allegiance," I pay closer attention to the words: ....."and to the Republic, for which it stands." Note that the word "democracy" is entirely absent from that pledge.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; Philosophy
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To: tpaine
BTTT
21 posted on 02/04/2003 2:57:50 PM PST by Fiddlstix
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To: KC Burke; tpaine
The article and your post at number 1 are dead-on-target

I'll second that remark.

22 posted on 02/04/2003 3:05:28 PM PST by Just another Joe
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To: philman_36
Many here at FR think that states should have the power to 'regulate' behavior by majority vote, - by prohibitions on 'evil' objects or on repugnant acts.

None of us like to see, for instance, 'evil' drugs bring used in the repugnant acts of drug abusers. --
-- But we must realise that the enforcement of outright prohibitions violate rights far more than their acts justify.
--Reasonable state/local regulations, as per booze, are thus constitutional. Bans are not.

23 posted on 02/04/2003 3:09:27 PM PST by tpaine
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: tpaine
Many here at FR think that states should have the power to 'regulate' behavior by majority vote, - by prohibitions on 'evil' objects or on repugnant acts.
Regulate - agree. Prohibition - disagree, partially.
The States should regulate some things as without those regulations many actual crimes would take place. For instance, a States "weights and measures" regulations. If there were not regulations in such instances then the purchasing of a gallon of gasoline or a pound of vegetables would be at the whim of each merchant. My gallon or pound might be less, constituting theft.
In the prohibition aspect "things" shouldn't be prohibited while "criminal acts" should be prohibited. Murder is a "repugnant act" as well as a criminal act, the same as with rape. I want things such as murder and rape prohibited by law.
However, many "repugnant acts", as they are viewed by some, aren't criminal acts yet are made so within the law. There is simply too much objectivity in stating something is a "repugnant act". One person may not see it as such and another person does. That is why our State legislators are supposed to be objective and look out for the rights of the people as a whole and not cater to "special interests".
Just MO and very limited, but something to think about.
25 posted on 02/04/2003 3:14:48 PM PST by philman_36
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To: Just another Joe
Thanks again. - Its encouraging to get some positive feedback, instead of the usual mindless catcalls from the warriors of WOD/gun/liberties crowd.
26 posted on 02/04/2003 3:16:22 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
We do have to clarify our thoughts don't we. So easy to "run amok with snippets", isn't it.
27 posted on 02/04/2003 3:17:11 PM PST by philman_36
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To: tpaine
In a democracy the individual takes a hit from both ends, the tyranny of the majority, and the tryanny of the minoirity. Democracy doesn't work, a socialist democracy never works. George Washington, "We have given you a Republic ma'am, if you can keep it".
28 posted on 02/04/2003 3:20:20 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: tpaine
Good info and I would like to add that codes, rules, regulations, etc. are not constitutional unless they were created by the normal legislative process. Codes, regulations, etc. mandated by local gov'ts. are not constitutional because they were created under "color of law" and do not apply to citizens. Our biggest problem is that we have an estimated 60 million+ codes, rules, reg's etc. on the books, the vast majority of which were created as revenue producers.
29 posted on 02/04/2003 3:22:12 PM PST by american spirit
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To: tpaine
Federalist No. 10
Federalist No. 14
Federalist No. 48
30 posted on 02/04/2003 3:27:18 PM PST by michigander
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To: MissAmericanPie
George Washington, "We have given you a Republic ma'am, if you can keep it".
Benjamin Franklin, not George Washington.
31 posted on 02/04/2003 3:33:19 PM PST by philman_36
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To: american spirit
Well put.

Could you expand on your "color of law", -- 'does not apply to citizens', -- thought though? - You lost me.

32 posted on 02/04/2003 4:24:28 PM PST by tpaine
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To: philman_36; tpaine
That is why our State legislators are supposed to be objective and look out for the rights of the people as a whole and not cater to "special interests".

Everything I have stated in this thread would fall under that umbrella. Take the issues of secession and nullification--why would you deny those fundamental rights if they served to protect the rights of the people "as a whole"? Are states republics or not?

In my first post I was simply pointing out the fact that the republic--that is the United States of America--envisioned by our forefathers is dead. It died when when Lincoln used deadly force to prevent a few states from exercising their rights as independent republics. They had willingly joined the union and believed--quite correctly--that they could willingly depart. The majority, however, believed that those states did not have the right to secede, and 620,000 men died as a result of "majority rule."

It's nice to see discussions like this, but when you paint yourself into a corner by believing that things can only be rectified through "using the courts & civil disobedience," you are left with nothing more than a dream that can never be realized. I wonder where we would be if the founders took such a passive approach.

33 posted on 02/04/2003 9:38:41 PM PST by sheltonmac
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To: tpaine
It's my understanding that the codes/reg's etc. created by a city council does not have the same force of law as those laws created by normal constitutional process. Most city gov'ts. are now nothing more than corporations attempting to gain more control and revenue from citizens in their alleged jurisdiction. Any set of codes passed by a city council are essentially unenforceable because they are not constitutional in nature and as such are created under "color of law". The mayor and city council are nothing more than the CEO and board of directors of the local corporation known as "The City of...." and have no more jurisdiction over our affairs than would the CEO and board of IBM. Also, when IBM creates a set of codes and rules it's only applicable to their employees, same thing applies to local corporate gov'ts.

34 posted on 02/04/2003 9:44:30 PM PST by american spirit
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To: sheltonmac
bump
35 posted on 02/04/2003 9:46:51 PM PST by A Patriot Son
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To: sheltonmac
States rights are your 'dream' and your 'corner'.
- Governments at all levels have only the powers granted to them by the people. -- Powers that respect our constitutional rights. -- They have no other powers.

- You apparently want to reargue the civil war. No thanks.
36 posted on 02/04/2003 10:04:59 PM PST by tpaine
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To: sheltonmac
Take the issues of secession and nullification--why would you deny those fundamental rights if they served to protect the rights of the people "as a whole"?
I wouldn't and don't deny the rights of secession and nullification. I personally believe that a State has the right to secede from the union if it so chooses. Ours is supposed to be a voluntary union entered into upon agreed terms, but, as you rightly point out, it was held together by force of arms in the past. It probably would come to that point again, force of arms, to keep the union together if the situation were to repeat itself. Force of arms might be attempted, though I don't think the outcome would be the same.
In the climate of the world today we need the union of our seperate republics moreso than at any other time in history. Restraining the federal powers is what every one of the States should be doing and instead more and more power and authority is being turned over.
Are states republics or not?
Our American States are republics. I thought I made that clear earlier. That touches upon what you wrote earlier and I spoke my piece on that.
37 posted on 02/04/2003 11:31:55 PM PST by philman_36
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To: sheltonmac
BTW...
The majority, however, believed that those states did not have the right to secede, and 620,000 men died as a result of "majority rule."
"The majority" can kiss my backside. They can "believe" whatever the hell they want to. If they want to "believe" that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exists they can do so.
A belief in some things isn't always reality.
38 posted on 02/04/2003 11:38:40 PM PST by philman_36
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To: philman_36; sheltonmac; yall
philman_36
"The various States, each being a seperate republic, compromise a union, or confederacy if you will, of republics."


Exactly. - The key to the union being, -- the states agreement that the U.S. Constitution is to be the supreme 'law of the land', -- as it applies to our basic individual inalienable rights. [Art. VI]

Many here at FR think that states should have the power to 'regulate' behavior by majority vote, - by prohibitions on 'evil' objects or on repugnant acts.
-- This type of law violates any number of the constitutional safeguards of our BOR's.

As we see in CA, 'evil' guns are being regulated out of the hands of law abiding citizens, using this type of statist thinking.
19 posted on 02/04/2003 2:26 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine; sheltonmac
A very great misperception. I don't know how anyone can view things in the manner in which sheltonmac did.
sheltonmac, do you understand the difference now?
20 p
__________________________________
" Take the issues of secession and nullification--why would you deny those fundamental rights if they served to protect the rights of the people "as a whole"? "
-S Mac-

I wouldn't and don't deny the rights of secession and nullification. I personally believe that a State has the right to secede from the union if it so chooses. Ours is supposed to be a voluntary union entered into upon agreed terms, but, as you rightly point out, it was held together by force of arms in the past. It probably would come to that point again, force of arms, to keep the union together if the situation were to repeat itself. Force of arms might be attempted, though I don't think the outcome would be the same.
In the climate of the world today we need the union of our seperate republics moreso than at any other time in history. Restraining the federal powers is what every one of the States should be doing and instead more and more power and authority is being turned over.

"Are states republics or not?"

Our American States are republics. I thought I made that clear earlier. That touches upon what you wrote earlier and I spoke my piece on that.
________________________________

At #20, above, you agreed with me that states do not have the power to violate our constitution. -- Yet you agree with S-Mac that they can nullify/secede from our union, in effect destroying that same document.

I don't get 'it'. - Either the principles of our union/constitution are worth fighting for, -- within the bounds set forth in the document itself, or it should be amended.

-- What are your proposed amendments, gentlemen?


39 posted on 02/05/2003 1:08:30 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
...you agreed with me that states do not have the power to violate our constitution.
Where does the Constitution state that States can't secede? I don't see it anywhere.
40 posted on 02/05/2003 1:21:51 PM PST by philman_36
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